TR03 - Losers self-teach DemiGod

[Mach]

Ok I see the plan and I agree it looks good. I'm glad I paused to get instructions, because I would have attacked later with trebs... I'll play tonight.

Settlers from Hattusha, that was what I was thinking. We'll have that worker factory reestablished in short order.

I doubt we'll hit 4 mercs in one city. Certainly not Eindhoven, which is only size 5 and doesn't need any flip suppression. That other Foggy City may have more units, since it's squeezed a bit...

I'm afraid war with Spain might jeopardize our settler and workers we'll have over there. I'll do my best with that. I'll make RoP with Turks as part of the MA, so I can hide in there.

 

[Tubby Rower]

NO RoP with the Turks. We don't want them to take any of the Dutch cities. Be greedy on this one. They shouldn't sneak attack you. So let them trudge through our territory.

The MAIN reason for getting the Turks into the Dutch war was to prevent them from getting stronger and at the same time tie them up so that they do not MA with the Dutch against us

EDIT::::Can someone more knowledgable confirm my list? I'd hate for Mach to follow my advice and it be wrong and the exact opposite of what the team would recommend!

 

[Minute Man]

Mercs are 1/4/1, and are the reason I quit COTM9 (the sods were all on hills and killing my Cavalry like it was going out of fashion). I have personal reasons for seeing these guys go down, down, down!

I had a similar experience... My berserks rolled over the Hittites (or whoever it was that was to their east), then I reached the Dutch, and my offense just ground to a halt. I didn't quit, exactly, but I set the game aside for a bit and didn't get back to it in time to finish.

Oh come on. it's better to die fighting than quit!!! I'd say go ahead and risk the 8 knights vs 4 mercs. But I'm a risk taker and sometimes It's not the best risks to take.

Well, having been burned at Babylon (I think I had 7 attacks and only killed one spear), I'd advise caution. Getting a bunch of knights killed without taking a city wouldn't help our cause much.

My combat calculator says a veteran knight has a 51% chance of beating a fortified regular merc, and a 34% chance against a vet (though that doesn't take retreats into consideration). So I'd say that a 3-1 advantage is probably the minimum I'd feel comfortable with.

I doubt we'll hit 4 mercs in one city. Certainly not Eindhoven, which is only size 5 and doesn't need any flip suppression.

You're probably right, though investigating Eindhoven will answer that question for sure. You can count on Amsterdam to be pretty heavily defended, though.

The real problem with Swiss Mercs is that they're so cheap - half the price of muskets. Which means that they cost a DG AI, what, 21 shields? And we're about to kick off Willie's GA...this is going to be a tough war. After taking the first two cities, it'll probably be a good idea to bring in the trebs and advance more slowly. Blitzing with sheer force of numbers isn't going to work too well.

EDIT: x-post with Tubby. Your list looks good to me. Not that you asked for my opinion.

 

[Mach]

Just to play devil's advocate, tub...Willie has mercs, ancient cav, horses, iron, high populations... IIRC, we are strong compared to the Turks and weak compared to the Dutch. I agree, the main reason for the MA is to tie up the Turks, and make sure they don't MA against us. But I don't think we need to be worried about the Turkish chances of taking and holding Dutch cities.

@MM, I was going to turtle up for a few turns after taking the two cities, so Willie can gas hisself a bit, before trudging toward their core. So I agree with you, this is gonna be tough. Are you suggesting I should build a round of trebs after the knights? We only have 2 trebs right now...

@tub, your list looks good to me too. Thanks for it. I would just add have 2 settlers ready with the attack force, and raze-and-replace both cities.

 

[Tubby Rower]

After thinking about it.....Risks are just that. I would do as MM suggested and hold off til we get 3-1 ratio against those mercs.

 

[Minute Man]

Just to play devil's advocate, tub...Willie has mercs, ancient cav, horses, iron, high populations... IIRC, we are strong compared to the Turks and weak compared to the Dutch. I agree, the main reason for the MA is to tie up the Turks, and make sure they don't MA against us. But I don't think we need to be worried about the Turkish chances of taking and holding Dutch cities.

IMO, the other big reason for the MAs is that we aren't strong enough to take on the Dutch alone. And it would be really nice to see Osman losing a lot of troops trying to take out Mercs for us. If he does manage to take a city or two, not a big deal...they'll be far from his core and not very productive.

Are you suggesting I should build a round of trebs after the knights? We only have 2 trebs right now...

I'd probably build a few. I don't really see us taking a city like Amsterdam without either (a) a huge number of knights or (b) some bombardment support.

 

[Tubby Rower]

I agree with the above. (I've changed my mind about the 1st point and and now on MM's side)

Give the Turks RoP!

 

[eldar]

Give them RoP, and stop them at the gates of Vienna. Hang on, that was RL (just been to the "Turks" exhibition at the Royal Academy of Arts...).

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

If he does manage to take a city or two, not a big deal...they'll be far from his core and not very productive.

bingo

We're not going on a blitzkreig to paris here. To paraphrase scout, combined arms, combined arms, combined arms.

IMIO, grasshoppers having good discussion. Now to place winged, multi-faceted eye, flying creature into ointment. What if we take 2 cities on first turn and then send MI, LB and trebs as our follow on forces for the 2nd wave of cities and then switch back to knights for wave 3?

 

[Bede]

bingo
We're not going on a blitzkreig to paris here. To paraphrase scout, combined arms, combined arms, combined arms.

Damme, that's twice in one game I have to say "Correct, as always, Admiral"!

You feelin' alright?

IMIO, grasshoppers having good discussion. Now to place winged, multi-faceted eye, flying creature into ointment. What if we take 2 cities on first turn and then send MI, LB and trebs as our follow on forces for the 2nd wave of cities and then switch back to knights for wave 3?

Just want to add a note here (and some of you have heard this before):

Focus on the objective. Do not pass "GO", do not "chase strays", go directly and by the shortest route to the target.

Once the first city has fallen to a "Lightning Attack", stop, catch your breath and let the support troops and the city builders catch up. If you have any healthy units they can be used to skirmish and withdraw with the counter forces while everybody else gets into place.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

Once the first city has fallen to a "Lightning Attack", stop, catch your breath and let the support troops and the city builders catch up. If you have any healthy units they can be used to skirmish and withdraw with the counter forces while everybody else gets into place.

I think that's what I meant in my own little deranged way. Have I expounded on plans to become a brain surgeon or rocket scientist? <runs away waving cutlass, trying to load cartridges into revolver>

 

[Mach]

Once the first city has fallen to a "Lightning Attack", stop, catch your breath and let the support troops and the city builders catch up. If you have any healthy units they can be used to skirmish and withdraw with the counter forces while everybody else gets into place.

Yup, that's what I meant when I said I'd turtle up for awhile after (hopefully) the two cities are taken. I'll build some more trebs, and possibly other slow movers (knights in the capital, though), while Willie gasses hisself. With any luck, AK will be playing with slow movers in enemy territory, maybe escorted by knight skirmishers.

 

[Mach]

How did it go? You be the judge...


T1 (130BC) I scout out Foggy City...

Yep, they got mercs.
Rush a settler

T3 (90BC) I investigate the cities...
Eindhoven: 2 reg mercs and a treb, building a galley
Arnhem: 3 reg mercs, building library
We want 15 knights, we have...15 knights. Deep breath. War in 2.

T4 (70BC) I position the troops, rush a settler...
(I) The Turks are positioning themselves as if they want to attack Pink Iron, hehe... Little do they know, those units are destined for another civ...

T5 (50BC) I cover our workers near Pink Iron with a 3-man to keep them from temptation anyway.

And here we go!
Declare on Dutch
Sign up the Portuguese against the Dutch for 11gpt
Sign up the Turks against the Dutch for ROP and 17gpt
Declare on Spain
Sign up the Russians against Spain for 13gpt

Battle of Arnhem:
Knight redlines reg merc and dies
Knight kills reg merc
Knight does no damage and retreats
Knight kills reg merc
Knight dies on redlined merc, which upgrades to vet
Knight takes Arnhem! City razed.

Battle of Eindhoven:
Vet 3-man takes two workers that were in the way
...and Eindhoven is covered by a vet merc! That wasn't there before...
Knight takes out vet merc
Knight takes out reg merc!
Knight takes out reg merc! Eindhoven is ours!

Um, what just happened there? Knights musta ate their Wheaties today.

Brace for counterattack...

(I) The Ottomans declare war against us. Miraculously, the warrior in Pink Iron holds against two archers, but the 3-man retreats, losing the workers. And the spear pillages our iron. They bring up more archers. There's nothing I can do to save the town.

Here's what it looks like:

And just for fun, the Dutch counterattack...

T6 (30BC) Found Samuha, New Eindhoven
I evacuate the wounded 3-man from Pink Iron, leaving behind the heroic warrior behind. I kill some Ancient Cavs, and divert some knights up toward Pink Iron.
(I) Pink Iron is taken. The heroic warrior managed to kill an archer, but died to the second.

T7 (10BC) Found New Arnhem
Elite Knight defeats wounded ancient cav near New Eindhoven, and we get a leader! Build knight army.
(I) Turks sign Russians up against the Dutch.

T8 (10AD) Pick off some units
(I) We lose the settler and workers that were trying to come in from Spain. Well, I led them on a merry chase, and that spear managed to kill two archers.
And now the Portuguese move 3 archers and a warrior to outside Tyrana. Are they about to attack us??? I bolster the defense in Tyrana.

T9 (30AD) Pick off some more units.
(I) Spain declares war on the Portuguese...
The Ports retreat from Tyrana. Sheesh.

T10 (50AD) Same

Ok, so, we're at war with the Dutch and Ottomans. I replayed that inter-turn a few times, and nothing I did could keep the Ottos from attacking. Dman, you advised me to move all 3-mans to the Dutch front, and I didn't really listen all that well -- I left most of our 3-mans in our border cities, and it still didn't deter the Turks.

The Otto advance is stemmed, but still I lost us our iron.

There's a small force in Ivriz to take back Pink Iron, but it's a bit wounded -- the Ottos have hoards of archers that just keep comin'.

The Dutch were concentrating their attacks on New Eindhoven, until I built that army. They are in the process of shifting their focus west.

That's all I can think of saying. Was there anything I could have done to stop the Ottos from attacking? Should I have delayed the Dutch offensive when I suspected the Ottos might attack? They came with two archers and a spear, which I figured they would divert toward the Netherlands once I made the MA...

I don't think our position is all that bad, we have the forces to hold our Dutch takings, and to retake Pink Iron. And I have much faith in A-K.

Here's teh save

 

[Bede]

Innerestin', very inneresting'.

Been a while since I have seen so aggressive a set of AI's even at this level of play. They are a bunch o' barbarians. The Turk lacks for no resource that I can see. But why is he sending archers :shakehead:

And if that is the case then 3MC's are just the ticket.

I think we can still make use of the chariot guys now that the iron is x-ed, and they are really cheap.

So preserve the knights in the west and play a skirmishing game with Willie, moving our border forward as we can. And send the 3MC's against the Turk.

 

[Admiral Kutzov]

got it......

 

[eldar]

Well, this looks like fun.

Given what Osman's just done, it brings me to a point I've always been unsure of - the AIs reputations/attitudes amongst each other.

Ossie just RoP-raped us - does that mean he'll never get another RoP with any of the other AIs ever again? Or are they more forgiving when it comes to "their own"?

 

[dmanakho]

I second Bede here.
I've never seen so much agression from AIs, that surely will be a good lesson for us
Strange strange...
I suggest we take pink iron and control over iron back and i believe at that point ottomans will agree on peace deal so we can concentrate on dutch.
Do Ottomans have Salpenter? If they don't they won't get SIpahis and will be really easy target after Dutch problem is solved. (We may re-think dutch war and just keep it going until MAs are expired and then make peace and turn back on Otto or something.)
Sorry my war plan was a blow and the calculated risk of stripping our easter borders didn't play well.

ON a second thought if we think we can fight 2 front war and use our 3mcs to make some real damage to Ottoman's lets do it.

 

[Mach]

I took a look at the save again this morning and I saw the Otto's other iron souce is right near our new town of Samuha. One of the 3-mans in there could go over and disconnect it. And if we rush some culture in Samuha, we might bring that iron into our borders, wouldn't that be nice? Sorry I didn't do that earlier...

IIRC, the Ottos do have saltpeter, on a hill. I think it was in or near old Babylon, but don't hold me to that. But they don't seem to have horses...

I don't think we have many 3-mans available as an offensive force, lots of them are stuck in garrisons, but with our production we can build a bunch in a hurry. Currently (IIRC) we have 3 (wounded) knights, a 3-man, a longbow, a med inf, a treb, and a musket near Pink City.

Sorry my war plan was a blow

I don't think it was; it worked perfectly. We gots us some salt. Who could predict what the tricksy Ottos would do?

 

[dmanakho]

I can't think clearly right now...
Now i am having another idea on using Knight Army and few knights for active defence against Willie. Make peace with him as soon as Henry signs peace with him or MA expires (whatever comes first) and concentrate on Ottomans..
I am not really sure what is the best way to go.
Either will work but we need to generate new team strategic plan for the future since ottomans messed up our original plans.


@Mach: You played your set of turns very well. It is not your fault Otto's declared on us. You simply can't do anything at all once they decide to start war and enter your territory. MAs don't help as we've discussed it previously.
What we will have to do for future is to keep better garrisons in all border cities and track each and every AI movement inside of our territory. Just to make sure we are not getting caught on the same trick 3rd time in a single game. There should be a good proverb on such a situation.

 

[Mach]

Now i am having another idea on using Knight Army and few knights for active defence against Willie. Make peace with him as soon as Henry signs peace with him or MA expires (whatever comes first) and concentrate on Ottomans..

Ya know, the same idea crossed my mind. The Dutch are not going to be harder to conquer than they are right now, what with their cheap mercs, and them in their GA. They'll be easier later, when we have cavs. (Do they have salt now that we took the one source from them?)

The Ottos, on the other hand, are ripe for the picking. They're currently fighting with longbows, archers, and spears. We can disconnect their iron in short order. Plus they sneak attacked us, so we got a grudge to deal with...

I agree, this is a thought to consider.

You played your set of turns very well.

Seriously, thanks...

EDIT

and track each and every AI movement inside of our territory.

Yeah, learned my lesson there. When the Ports moved those archers next to a city manned by one warrior, plus some sword movement in their territory near that city, I quickly moved two knights into it. They backed off, luckily.