TR03 - Losers self-teach DemiGod

dmanakho said:
We believe you intended to click continents :)
But this is a pangea map. Pangea map often have islands where one or two AI (or human player for that matter) can have starting locations.

Just ran it through Ainwood's SeedBeast and the result says "continents".

The log:

350BC Change some chariot builds to longbows. I can hear the howls of anguish from d-man now; but, there are fewer wasted shields, we aren't going to have the cash to upgrade the 3MC's we already have to knights, and that defensive free shot is just too tempting to ignore. And longbows with trebuchets are a killer combination, almost as good as knights.

Change our scientists to taxmen so we will be at least 1g to the good when we learn Gunpowder and that brings our beaker count precisely in line with the beakers needed for Gunpowder in four. Tis a small thing but important when every gold piece counts. We could really use some more markets and libaries.

A little hint on jungle clearing: it is best done when you have no more useful things for workers to do and you need really big gangs to make it work in a reasonable time. If I have the workers I like to set up big gangs: six move onto the jungle and build a road, the others come in when the road is done and everybody chops, when the jungle is gone, six move off to road the next piece, the rest of the crew builds whatever improvement is necessary to the newly cleared terrain then joins the road crew when it is done. It takes about 18, I think, to make it work the best.

330BC Sign an RoP with Henry to get him off our land a little faster and he pays a nice toll to use our roads.

tr03_330BC.jpg


And it works a treat. Three turns in and the Portugese have left the building.

Hire a tax collector in Hattusas to avoid rioting and shift the citizens around to get 25spt, not that I know what to do with it.

270BC Gunpowder is learned and we hold a monopoly, so shut off the research to build cash for upgrades.

Take advantage of our monopoly position to empty Henry's pockets figuring I can trade for Chivalry later.

tr03_270BC.jpg


Spain has saltpeter, Portugal has saltpeter, Turks have saltpeter, we got no saltpeter, Dutch have saltpeter at Eindhoven.

Since we are going to war with Willie boy to get some salt, buy Chivalry from Henry for 117gpt. And start a settler at Hattusas to claim some open land in the east.

Trade Chivalry and Wines to Catherine for Silks and 78g+3gpt.

250BC A settler moves out from Harran to claim the saltpeter at Eindhoven.

230BC The borders at Eindhoven expand before I can found the town so the settler goes to the hill above the floodplains.

210BC Iron is up so upgrade nine 3MC for 1080g.

150BC Printing Press is learned and no one, not even the Portugee seem to know the French. The best bet is the Dutch who have some settlements in the East Indies. Salamanca and Valencia will disband on the inter-turn. They are too far away, impossible to defend and are just an invitation for the Spanish to take. One will produce a settler, the other a worker.

Whatever you do don't sell Gunpowder to Willie.

We have eleven knights some longbows and a couple of trebs. Build some more knights, some more stone throwers and have a settler ready and we can take Eindhoven.

No dot map needed as we are only filling in the holes left by the neighbors. We are right close to the OCN so every new town will contribute to unit support but that is about it. Three more towns and every new town will start to drive corruption into the core.

tr03_150BC.jpg
 
Bede said:
Just ran it through Ainwood's SeedBeast and the result says "continents".
Sorry i was wrong on this one... Some strange continental map with only french people populating the "other" land

Bede said:
350BC Change some chariot builds to longbows. I can hear the howls of anguish from d-man now; but, there are fewer wasted shields, we aren't going to have the cash to upgrade the 3MC's we already have to knights, and that defensive free shot is just too tempting to ignore. And longbows with trebuchets are a killer combination, almost as good as knights.

:gripe: - there we go... :lol:
Actually, what i'd do in such a situation - build unit for one turn and cash rush it next turn. or if it takes only 2 turns to build units with shield waste then build cheaper unit or structure one turn and cash rush Hors (3MC in our case) next turn. Most of the time this trick works unless there is really weird number of shields vs. unit cost involved.


Now... I 100% concur with Bede - It's the :hammer: time.
@Next player: Don't wait more than couple of turns. Strike WIllie and strike him hard. Must sign MAs with Henry against him whatever it will cost us.
Don't be shy to ask tactical war questions :)

Need to secure eastern borders - 3 ways to do it.
1. Station many troops there (not efficient way)
2. Sign MA with at least turks and russians against Willie (and watch them marching trough our territory)
3. Declare phony war on Spain and sign MA with Turks and Russian against Izzy.
4. Do nothing (very bad -> we have good odds for Willie to sign MA against us)

Any suggestions?
 
I like the Spanish war. Izzy's picture disturbs me for some reason. The only issue is that that Otto will more than likely get more powerful.

Maybe sign MA with Russia against Izzy and sign one with Otto against Willi. Then Otto's forces will be tied up coming south and be fairly ineffective.
 
Having Ottomans around is better for us that any of the European tribes.

Civ3 uses this nationality grouping (i forgot the term) where nations in the same group have better attitude against each other..
Ottomans are in the same group with us, so they are less likely to sneak attack us than anybody else. Another nations that could have been friendly to us - Babylon is out of the picture.

I tend to agree with Tubby if we sign Otto against Willie Osmans won't be able to grab any additional land and become stronger.
We can probably stop there, I am sure if Henry and Otto start war against
Willie they will manage to sign Spain and Russia against Willie as well...
Remember the way they did with Babylon. This is not an exact science but odds are good.
 
Bede - just played
Mach - up
A-K - on deck hopefully killing Ghandi in SW3
 
Ok, I'm around and I got it. I'll take a good look around this evening, although if I have too many questions, I'll wait until tomorrow night to play.

Bede, did you forget the save? Or maybe I'm missing something...

As for war plans, I'm ok with signing Turks against Willie. I just want to note that with this plan, we're stuck at war with Willie for awhile. If we go with Ottos vs. Spain, then I can make peace with Willie if things go sour.

Also, a few questions about builds, if you guys don't mind. Why is Remedial City working on granary? (Not that I have a better suggestion...)

And why is Harran building a pike? Wouldn't we be better off building offensive units there, or do we want pikes this game?
 
Mach said:
As for war plans, I'm ok with signing Turks against Willie. I just want to note that with this plan, we're stuck at war with Willie for awhile. If we go with Ottos vs. Spain, then I can make peace with Willie if things go sour.
This war will be on our terms and we must succeed or else :rolleyes:
We will play until is Willie pushed to the sea or until all MAs are gone and we can demand techs/gold/cities from Willie... So be ready for a long combat.

Mach said:
Also, a few questions about builds, if you guys don't mind. Why is Remedial City working on granary? (Not that I have a better suggestion...)

And why is Harran building a pike? Wouldn't we be better off building offensive units there, or do we want pikes this game?


I am sure Bede had his reasons... Personally I would not build pikes, but sinse we have longbows we need a pike or two to protect stack of longbows with trebs.
I would change Remedial City to courthouse or market if court is built already.
Don't build Granaries - we have to capture Dutch capital instead. Those guys have Pyramids. :drool:

EDIT: Why Ugarit is stuck on size 6? Is it MM for shields? I'd rather let it grow and have land around that city improved. This is inner core city we shall let it grow.
Another reason - all cities above 6 have better unit support. There more cities we have the better for our armies.
 
Mach said:
Bede, did you forget the save? Or maybe I'm missing something...
You know he's old now and you have to cut him some slack....
 
Just to add some comments:

Granaries power population growth, especially when towns start turning into cities, and the Pyramids are still a ways off.

Ugarit is in that funny place where the marginal citizen really doesn't have terribly spiffy terrain to work in, at least until we can get some workers up to chop the jungle. So, stuck it at size six for a while and managed for shields.

There wasn't a whole lot of potential for cash rushing as the budget was straining towards Gunpowder and then the 3MC upgrades and then some culture rushing on the borders. Just not enough room to make it work. The pikes and bows were built to make the best use of the available shields and to provide for cover on trebs and the wounded. If we had had iron earlier I would have built maces instead where I had eight spt, or some other divisor of forty.

The Admiral will tell you, I can be a waste Nazi (hate it, hate it, hate it, don't really like it). And it is one of the things that separates the merely good from the sublime, :D, or is that "slime".

And yeah this is a war to the death with Willie. Can't afford to let him live much longer.

Yeah, I'm old and gray.

Here is the save....
 
we got no saltpeter, Dutch have saltpeter at Eindhoven.

Concur with all that Willie's gotta go.

If we're gonna give MA's to fight Willie, let's give them an RoP as part of the deal so they can do some fighting for us. The trick will be to take the cities before the AI and have a combat settler to replace it in a turn or two.

Do we have the embassies up?

For those who track my schedule, playing SW2 and 3 tonight in prep for this tomorrow? :drool:
 
dman said:
This war will be on our terms and we must succeed or else
Ok, good, so, like, no pressure. :D

Bede said:
The Admiral will tell you, I can be a waste Nazi (hate it, hate it, hate it, don't really like it). And it is one of the things that separates the merely good from the sublime, , or is that "slime".
'Scuse me while I get this tatooed somewhere... Seriously, this is the kinda thing I've been trying to teach myself lately -- my games tend to have a lot of waste. Be assured I'm gonna study this save before I play.

AK said:
For those who track my schedule, playing SW2 and 3 tonight in prep for this tomorrow?
Don't count on me finishing my turns tonight, AK, I'm gonna take my time and bug y'all for :help: if I need to. I'd rather be slow than screw it up... :undecide:

Bede said:
Yeah, I'm old and gray.
Well, it kinda suits you anyway. :dance:
 
Bede said:
Just to add some comments:
Granaries power population growth, especially when towns start turning into cities, and the Pyramids are still a ways off.

I would still argue that court or market is a better build at the moment.
Let it grow in a normal pace.

Bede said:
Ugarit is in that funny place where the marginal citizen really doesn't have terribly spiffy terrain to work in, at least until we can get some workers up to chop the jungle. So, stuck it at size six for a while and managed for shields.

Let it grow. My point is at size 7 it gives us 2 extra units in republic.
That means 4gpt each turn... Even that citizen is a clown it is much better to let city to grow... Even if it brings us 0spt it will give us some gold some science.
This is my strong opinion - growth is the power especially in republic. LEEEETT ITT GRRROOOWWWW!!!!! ;)

Just my $0.02
 
Heh, you guys are funny. I've stared at the save, and here are my thoughts.

First, this is going to be a tough war. The Dutch have large cities, and they must have Swiss mercs and knights. And we're weak compared to them. So we're gonna sustain losses. We need more trebs to keep that down.

We currently have in the area 6 knights, 2 trebs, 4 bows, and a pike. I don't want to start the war with just that. If it were up to me, I'd let the current round of knights finish, then I'd make a round of trebs in our 10spt and 15spt cities. I could partially rush the trebs, so we could be at war in...8 turns? Something like that. We would be at something like 12 knights, 5 trebs, 4 longbows, 2 pikes, and 2 settlers at that point. I could send the knights against the city under the fog sw of Kummanni, and the slow movers against Eindhoven.

With this in mind, I would keep Ugarit as it is for the moment -- letting it grow would knock it down to +7spt, essentially removing one military factory from our arsenal for the next 10 turns. Maybe when the war has started we can make the changeover to food...

What do you guys think? I won't start until I hear, since I think war in 8 turns was longer than dman wanted to wait...
 
Most of the ideas on the picture itself...
Do you guys think this is reasonable plan.

tr03-warplan1.JPG



Actually, we could sell Gunpowder to Dutch if Willie had money.
Swiss Merc have the same 4 defence as muskets so we could have made some money before starting war.
Too bad guy only has 16 gold.


After looking at the save i tend to agree with Bede now... (sorry Brother Bede i was wrong).
It will take 18 turns for Ugarit to grow, so won't make anydifference to us anytime soon. Once we improve land around it and have pyramids it will change.
Remedial city however can be switched to court or market.
It will take 15 something turns (after it grows in 2) for the city to build granary. Pyramids will be ours not far away at that point.
Those wines near Harran give lots of extra food, should mine plains for shields.
Citizen in Tyrana should be switched from mined grass to golden hill.. Will shave one turn of knight build, lots of extra gold and only 2 shields will be wasted.
Try to squeeze settlers from Hatusha if you can.
I believe Bede want to abandon those remote cities to get us some settlers.
Am i right about that?
 
The plan looks good to me. It always helps to be able to take a couple of cities on the first turn, before your opponent can even react. That's why fast units are so much fun.

The only thing I'm not sure about is the numbers. I'd feel comfortable sending in 6-8 knights on Monarch, but I honestly have no idea how many defenders a Demigod AI will have. Investigating the city should answer that question, though.

It is a pity that the civ it makes the most sense for us to attack is the one that has a strong defensive UU, though. Have the Dutch had their GA yet?
 
We should get one worker and one settler out of the Spanish cities (the settler will be native Hittite). Then it is just a matter of getting them home.....

Will has not had his GA and has held the Statue of Zeus for a little less than 60 turns and the Art of War for two.

Listen to d-man when he's talking war :salute:

And, how could I miss the gold at Tyrana, must be getting old?
 
Wow you guys stay up past my bed-time. I have to go to sleep @ 9 or 10 EST to have enough energy after I get home from work to play with my daughter. She's go-go-go all the time.

Back on topic, the plan sounds good dman. I agree with MM that I don't know about the defenders. Also I thought that the swiss mercs were 2/3? can anyone confirm?

If you hadn't played yet Mach, here's a list of do's:

1) wait for attack force to be in place
2) maybe investigate a city to find out number of defenders
3) make sure no units are in Dutch territory (even galleys) declare war
4) sign on Portugal and Ottomans against Dutch
5) make sure no units are in Spanish territory (even galleys) declare war
6) Sign on Russia against the Spainiards
7) use knights to take first two cities hopefully on first turn
8) pause to heal and get slow attackers up to those cities
9) have fun!!
 
I like the plan, however I do share my concerns over how many Swiss Mercs we'll find in Eindhoven. 3 Knights per Merc sounds about right, but if we see 4 - what then? Risk it with 8 Knights?

[Edit]
Hmm, nice x-posting there TR :D

Mercs are 1/4/1, and are the reason I quit COTM9 (the sods were all on hills and killing my Cavalry like it was going out of fashion). I have personal reasons for seeing these guys go down, down, down!
 
eldar said:
Mercs are 1/4/1, and are the reason I quit COTM9 (the sods were all on hills and killing my Cavalry like it was going out of fashion). I have personal reasons for seeing these guys go down, down, down!
Oh come on. it's better to die fighting than quit!!! I'd say go ahead and risk the 8 knights vs 4 mercs. But I'm a risk taker and sometimes It's not the best risks to take.
 
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