Tradition's 3 cities(food focused) opening

This doesn't work that well on price where cash is a lot tighter. Spain doesn't have too much worry but other civs do. The free worker in liberty will speed up lux sales and building the 1st settler at pop 2 or three works pretty well. Tradition after this seems okay. Policies are a bit cheaper.
 
Justice1337 said:
First, I'm not entirely convinced that Food Caravans are worth it at all until at least the second wave. You not only have difficulty making Happiness, but also workable tiles and Worker improvements. Basically if you halt your growth at all due to Unhappiness before T100, your Food Caravan was wasted. And there is absolutely no point to working naked 2f and 3f tiles when your caravan could've gotten you 3-4 Beakers per turn when sent to another Civ.
This +1.

I play on emperor. After experimenting around with this, I find that the only part of the strat I find comfortable was making the 2 settlers right after worker and then buy a 3rd one instead of a granary. I feel that if you have the money to buy granary, then you just have to wait a bit more to buy a settler, all the while hard building the granary if needed. The bane of this strat is the early happiness. Depends highly on the existence of both unique luxes and fresh water sources (to make sure your cities don't end up being subpar). I find you need at least 3 unique lux for 3 cities and 4 unique lux for 4 cities.

tommynt said:
This was the case in G+K - BNW speeds sp aquisition a bit so doing both trees might be a bit more doable. - but as said bit testing have to be done.

Not having to hardbuild unboosted settlers just opens the buildorder for many other things like units which cant hurt .. At least its more failprove ..
After some games, I feel that the "speeds up acquisition" bit isn't really felt until after you have museums and artifacts (after which you really breeze through them). Before this point SPs still require 20+ or even 30 turns to complete. It's been a while, but I don't remember that being much of an improvement over G&K.

Poland can do it I guess, but I'd like to see how the other civs managed. Maybe those with unique replacements like Songhai so I can feel less guilty not taking Legalism asap.
 
This +1.

I play on emperor. After experimenting around with this, I find that the only part of the strat I find comfortable was making the 2 settlers right after worker and then buy a 3rd one instead of a granary. I feel that if you have the money to buy granary, then you just have to wait a bit more to buy a settler, all the while hard building the granary if needed. The bane of this strat is the early happiness. Depends highly on the existence of both unique luxes and fresh water sources (to make sure your cities don't end up being subpar). I find you need at least 3 unique lux for 3 cities and 4 unique lux for 4 cities.

Doesn't sound right for me. You delay the granary(by hard building it) and going to buy a settler a bit later when you need to start the NC soon after. Keep the gold for units instead and get some barb camps for cs. Right after the NC you should have the occasion to rush buy a settler or build one from a bigger capital(after the NC).

What you can also do, if happiness is your biggest constraint, is to let down a caravan and work only 1 for your 2nd best city site and use the other for gold/science. Of course, like you said, you need good spots and at least 3 unique luxs. Fortunately, 95% of time, you will get at least 3 unique luxs. You should ally or be friendly, from time to time, some nearby cs and maybe use a chunk of 250 :c5gold: on one of those.

You can also trade lux for lux and get more happiness this way. Lot of players seem to forget that the AI can possess free happiness in their pocket. You don't need a DoF for this ;)
 
Just to be sure with happiness problem :

(emperor, continents, 3 traders, no DoF) Here is a pic showing 3 luxs connected with Monarchy, 2 nat. wonders and 1 from Goddess of Love. Kuala Lumpur didnt connect his pearl yet.

Spoiler :


If we take off Goddess of Love, this makes approx. 5-6 :c5happy: to start growth with an average of 1 national wonder found per game at this stage.

This is if you don't do anything else...the critical part is to keep up with happiness during the growth stage(turn 60-90).
 

Attachments

  • Gustavus Adolphus_0060 BC-1600.Civ5Save
    807.9 KB · Views: 147
  • AutoSave_Initial_0000 BC-4000.Civ5Save
    498 KB · Views: 128
Doesn't sound right for me. You delay the granary(by hard building it) and going to buy a settler a bit later when you need to start the NC soon after.
Oh yeah. I don't like the NC at all, nor the GL or Oxford in my tests on prince. A cultural VC can be had while still in the Renaissance or early industrial. In fact, I avoid science buildings like the plague to prolong the Renaissance. The cultural VC comes ~turn 200 - turn 225. A religion isn't a must either. Science is a bad thing.
 
Oh yeah. I don't like the NC at all, nor the GL or Oxford in my tests on prince. A cultural VC can be had while still in the Renaissance or early industrial. In fact, I avoid science buildings like the plague to prolong the Renaissance. The cultural VC comes ~turn 200 - turn 225. A religion isn't a must either. Science is a bad thing.

Really? But what is the relation with that quote? Or did you just misunderstood me? :)
 
Oh yeah. I don't like the NC at all, nor the GL or Oxford in my tests on prince. A cultural VC can be had while still in the Renaissance or early industrial. In fact, I avoid science buildings like the plague to prolong the Renaissance. The cultural VC comes ~turn 200 - turn 225. A religion isn't a must either. Science is a bad thing.

This is totally off-topic, but how does this work? You don't even have archeology in Renaissance, much less hotels/airports/internet. What is generating all those tourism points? Surely not just the GWs you make yourself, since the AI's culture will far surpass that. Is this just a Prince thing or does it work on higher difficulty levels?

What is the purpose of sabotaging your science?
 
This is totally off-topic, but how does this work? You don't even have archeology in Renaissance, much less hotels/airports/internet. What is generating all those tourism points? Surely not just the GWs you make yourself, since the AI's culture will far surpass that. Is this just a Prince thing or does it work on higher difficulty levels?

What is the purpose of sabotaging your science?

I guess that he discovered, like Sadato and glory7, a strategy to get very early a cultural victory using religion and ICS combination with Sacred sites.
 
I guess that he discovered, like Sadato and glory7, a strategy to get very early a cultural victory using religion and ICS combination with Sacred sites.
Actually I do start with 3ish cities. I don't necessary aim for the NC. Settling 4 or more cities tends to run into the "we believe you are settling cities too fast" penalty. This is probably why the AI tends to hang out with 3ish cities. Tourism is really another way of saying brainwashing. With few brains to be washed, tourism is easy.
 
Two things about this strategy:

1. Barbarians early in BNW are very strong. If you are unlucky you may have to go for archers very early which will slow down your progress.

2. Food. You may restart enough times to get a good first city that can eventually go 30+, however nothing can ensure you that you will get optimal locations for the other two cities. And with no military you cannot contest good locations near enemy civ's borders.


So, this is a good strat, but it is highly dependant on map and luck. I tried it with Korea, I got my first two cities (I had to clear a barb camp to settle the second city, so I had to produce an Archer).

My map however does not have a good spot for a third city near the first two. So either I have to settle a crap city, or delay and settle too far away.
 
What defines how much food a food caravan can carry? Is it buildings? Technologies? Trying to figure out the breakpoints where it goes from up in the amount of food it carries.
 
What defines how much food a food caravan can carry? Is it buildings? Technologies? Trying to figure out the breakpoints where it goes from up in the amount of food it carries.

I believe it is eras, but it could be techs. Obviously a cargo ship does a lot more than a caravan so I believe a coastal start can end up much stronger with BNW than a non-coastal start. I should really get around to testing the specifics one of these days.
 
Two things about this strategy:

1. Barbarians early in BNW are very strong. If you are unlucky you may have to go for archers very early which will slow down your progress.

2. Food. You may restart enough times to get a good first city that can eventually go 30+, however nothing can ensure you that you will get optimal locations for the other two cities. And with no military you cannot contest good locations near enemy civ's borders.


So, this is a good strat, but it is highly dependant on map and luck. I tried it with Korea, I got my first two cities (I had to clear a barb camp to settle the second city, so I had to produce an Archer).

My map however does not have a good spot for a third city near the first two. So either I have to settle a crap city, or delay and settle too far away.

Bad form to quote a whole post, for which I apologise. However, Red_Doctor's experiences mirror my own very closely.

Barbs are strong and a PITA. I have had to change the build order to include an extra unit prior to the second settler. Which type obviously depends on whether or not I pop Archery from a ruin.

Getting 3 good sites is another issue. However, I think I prefer to play with 4 or 5 cities (personal preference). Even though city 3 is poor it can grow and contribute units. The next two cities can be captured. I am able to ignore AI second and third cities and just capture capital cities. This is because I can produce a flood of archers, spears and cats really fast. So 4 of 5 cities are extremely strong.

I am practicing this start quite hard. I find it quite robust, and you must adapt to the circumstances. This is not painting by numbers.

This is my latest Empero start - As Korea by coincidence.
Points to note:

1. At turn 107 I have only met one Civ.
2. I have built cargo ships in lieu of caravans
3. My third city is quite food poor.

I was unable to get enough cash to buy worker + granary. Therefore I bought the granary only.

Barbs were a real nuisance and I put and extra unit in the build queue. Together, with this and the slight delay by building cargos instead of caravans I was able to save more money.

The explosion in growth meant that at turn 55 I had three cities, and turn 62 three cities with libraries, and turn 71 I had NC.

After Philo I was researching ancient age techs at 4 turns per.
After NC I was researching classical techs at 7 turns per.

By turn 90 I had a trireme, 2 cats, 6 archers and 3 spears.
I had 600g in the bank to upgrade all the archers. In the end I couldn't do this because I am a complete newb and didn't know you couldn't upgrade units outside your own territory. I bought a colloseum instead.
Turn 100 I had captured vienna + the worker I couldn't buy.
It is now turn 107 and next turn I will get a circus and a colloseum to cure the happiness issue.

The upshot of all this, is that despite being a complete newb, and despite a very average start, I think I'm in great shape. In particular my rate of research is just ridiculous compared to any of my previous games.

for little 'ol me to succeed then this must be a killer strat IMHO. There may be better ones around, but I haven't found one yet (and am definitely not clever enough to invent one).

A couple of screenies.

Spoiler :


Spoiler :
 

Attachments

  • trad1.JPG
    trad1.JPG
    343.8 KB · Views: 1,510
  • trad2.JPG
    trad2.JPG
    313.5 KB · Views: 1,486
I feel like this strategy is good, but just not on Deity. 60% of the time I try it I get pretty much beat up by turn 120 or so. Once I was making composite bowmen, and Washington spammed me with Minutemen. Needless to say, I lost the game pretty quickly, sadly.

Also, is it me or is the AI quite weird in some aspects? Once, I was next to Bismark; we did a declaration of friendship, next turn we did a RA, then traded for embassy, and then he declares war for 4 turn, until I ask for peace: initially, in the deal, he wanted two of my cities, both of which I took off the deal, and checked to see if he would accept peace for peace (he did not and he put the two cities back), then I tried again to get them off the deal and clicked accept, and somehow he accepted :/
 
I feel like this strategy is good, but just not on Deity. 60% of the time I try it I get pretty much beat up by turn 120 or so. Once I was making composite bowmen, and Washington spammed me with Minutemen. Needless to say, I lost the game pretty quickly, sadly.

I did it on the last deity challenge with Sweeden. I bribed the Mongols :)
 
I did it on the last deity challenge with Sweeden. I bribed the Mongols :)

Sadly, I can't play those challenges, I haven't got all the DLCs :( But, eh, how do you manage to get the money for both granary and worker and bribe? That's 700+ in total, it's kind of heavy money for the early game. How much did you bribe for, BTW?
 
Top Bottom