Triumvirate v4.0

[Stilgar08]

THIS IS LONG, BUT PLEASE READ!!! IMPORTANT, I THINK!

I numbered my notes below for further reference since it would get too complicated otherwise!

Tell you what - you stop your continual insinuations, and I'll stop calling you on them.

Fair enough?

-- Ravensfire

(1)

Well, seriously: That's not necessary, I'd say.

I recently had the feeling myself, that a few phrases and words used were recently made in order to "discredit" newbs. As you might have noticed Provolution and I have completely different opinions about major topics here but in this case I have to support him...

I'm not a groupie (as I have pointed out!) and I'm trying to be constructive so we should keep it that way! Ok?!?
And I'm defending my point of view to everyone who wants to question it (I think I proved that already, didn't I?)

It's a common practice to shoot a whole lot of scepticism against new ideas in order to put pressure on the people who support it (I prefer "supporter" (I said it before)). It might occur to some people that this is what's been tried here and we should take those people seriously.

(2)
@Ravensfire: It would have helped understanding of your post, if you would have quoted the tri-Article-lines you criticized and asked about before you put your points up.

In order to be able to follow your points and answer you I had to print out the Government-articles AND your post and compare them manually. KISS applies here as well!

example:

A)
II - NO!!! Cannot accept this.
IIA - Can the Speaker refuse to post a floor vote?
IIA.4 - Interesting, so if the Speaker breaks the law, they cannot be removed from office?
VA - 2 polls to impeach? Sheesh - by that time,the odds are the term is over!
..
..
..

Better would have been (IMHO):

A) The Legislative Branch
II. The Citizens Assembly shall consist of all citizens of the Nation. The Citizens Assembly shall be presided over by an elected Speaker.

II - NO!!! Cannot accept this.

IIA. The Powers and Duties of the Speaker:

IIA - Can the Speaker refuse to post a floor vote?

-------------------
Makes it just easier to follow and we want all people to be able to follow this discussion easily!! Makes it easier to defend opinions, won't it?

-------------------
(3)

Alphawolf has put forward a good proposal here, but I don't see a lot of other people helping or defending his work.

Ok, so here's my go:

(4)

Alphawolf and Ravensfire]The Government of the Triumvirate
Article 1 The Federal Government
A) The Legislative Branch
II. The Citizens Assembly shall consist of all citizens of the Nation. The Citizens Assembly shall be presided over by an elected Speaker.

A)
II - NO!!! Cannot accept this.

Not a strong argument. Why not? What's the problem? The speaker is more or less the coordinator of the Assembly who keeps track of what's going on. Necessary, I think.

(5)

IIA. The Powers and Duties of the Speaker:
1. The Speaker shall be in charge of all floor votes.
2. A floor vote may be called for by any member of the Citizens Assembly on any issue on which the Assembly has purview at any time.
A. To call a floor vote a member of the Citizens Assembly shall PM the Speaker. If the member is unable to PM the Speaker for what ever reason the Member shall post where appropriate.
B. After being asked to call a floor vote the Speaker shall post a thread in the discussions.
C. If at least 3 other members post saying they agree to have a vote on that issue the Speaker shall open a poll.
D. The poll will have three options: Yes/No/Abstain.
E. If the Yes votes number over 50% the measure shall have passed; if the Yes votes number exactly 50% or less the measure shall have failed.
3. The Deputy Speaker shall be the runner up in the election.

Ravensfire: IIA - Can the Speaker refuse to post a floor vote?

The way I read this article he can't. It's not mentioned. And I don't think he should be able to stop a vote! It would give the speaker too much power...

(6)
Further quotes all from Alphawolf and Ravensfire!

4. The Speaker may be impeached, by a majority vote of the Citizens Assembly.

Ravensfire - IIA.4 - Interesting, so if the Speaker breaks the law, they cannot be removed from office?

Has this been changed in version 4.1.?? Cause the point is gone, isn't it?

(7)

VA. An impeachment will be held in the same manner as a floor vote. Impeachment removes the entire Triumvirate. This poll will be open 48 hours only, for the motion to carry at least 7/10 (70%) must have voted in favor. If the motion is carried the Triumvirate is removed from office.

Ravensfire - VA - 2 polls to impeach? Sheesh - by that time,the odds are the term is over!

I will use this against you below , but let me here just say that if you want a fast-paced game it shouldn't be a DG (I know; I'm being impertinent but I'm exaggerating to point out my inner-conflight with your statement..)

Back on topic:
Where do you read from this, that an impeachment has 2 polls? I fail to see it (could very well be, because I oversee stuff occasionally) Wolf states impeachment shall work the same way as the floor vote (check first post (IIA) for further details) and it's just one vote... Maybe this has been changed in 4.1. as well? Unfortunately I don't have version 4.0 (Wolf - Can you p.m. the old version to me, please? I'd like to check some of these changes...)

(8)

B) The Executive Branch
IB. The Cabinet Officials will be any office that we the citizens deem necessary to have that is not included as part of the Triumvirate, the Judiciary, a Gubernatorial office or the Designated Player. The Cabinet shall consist of the Censor, Minister of Interior, Minster of Culture, Minister of Science, and Director of Intelligence.

Ravensfire -
B)
1B - How is this decided?

If the citizens deem a position to be necessary it should be made by a poll, simple as that...

(9)

II. The Powers and Duties or the Triumvirate.
IIA. The Powers and Duties of the President
1. The President nominates candidates from the nomination pool the Secretary of State and Minister of War.

Ravensfire - IIA.1 - What is the nomination pool?

Err, I don't know either! I'd assume it's the people who want to become Secretary of State, respectively War:

Example for Sec. of State:

A. Nominations for Secretary of State may be self nominations or a candidate may be nominated by someone else.

-These people are in the nomination pool for that position (Wolf: Correct me if I'm wrong)

(10)

IIA. The Powers and Duties of the President
2. During the Turnchat the President, or a Representative of the President, may order the ending of the game for a poll vote, i.e.: war, peace, change in Tax, change in Civics, where to build a new cities, or any thing else he deems appropriate and must abide by the outcome of said vote.

Ravensfire - IIA.2 - What if President is not there? Note - this can be potentially abused. Example - President doesn't like an idea, uses their "stop" power to continually revisit the decision.

One "critical thing which I see in this kind of government as well is, that Wolf assumes it as mandatory to be online when you're a member of the tri. I don't like that and other ways for this should be found...

Nevertheless I don't see how this can be abused, since when the DP or the tri uses their "stop-option", a poll will be held and the thing is decided.
Ergo: Proceed. when the DP stops again because of the very same issue I'd sue him! So the DP has to wait for the outcome of the vote and then proceeds...

(11)

4. The units the President controls:
A. The President shall control all Settler and the defensive units assigned to them.
Ravensfire-IIA.4 - Who assigns defensive units to the Pres?

This is implied in the powers of the governours and the Sec. of War:

IIC. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of War
1. The Secretary of War shall have control of all military land units with the exception of garrisons under the control of Governors and units assigned to settlers.
IA. The Powers and Duties of the Governors:
1. The Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radius.

So the defense-units for the settlers must be the ones meant. Right, Wolf?

(12)

6. During War time the President may preempt the control of workers.
IIA.6 - STRONGLY disagree with this. Governors should maintain, under all circumstances, control of their cities. All other leaders should request and persuade Governors to make changes. Historically, this has been quite simple to do. Deal-breaker for me.

Sorry, but not a heavy argument against it for me here, either... I replied to this in the respective poll in the polls-forum so I won't go there here-
EVERYONE: Please check the discussions in the poll-threads before voting!!
Personally I'd like to see this introduced. I'd like to point out, that the honorable DonovanZ. was all for this as well.

(13)

7. The President shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
A. The nominations for President may not be self nominations.

Ravensfire -
IIA.7.A - Disagree. May prevent a new citizen with great ideas, but no "buddies". Allow anyone to run if they so choose. The arguement of "Well, anyone would nominate them as requested!" also completely invalidates this clause. A useless rule should not be in there.
IIA.7.B - Disagree again. Several of us (glances as DS) like to persuade multiple people to run for office. See arguements against IIA.7.A also.

I don't have a personal opinion about this so I won't comment a lot, but I'd like to see what IIA.7.B was: It has been deleted and I'd like to see why!

(14)

B. The Secretary of State needs the permission of the Triumvirate to accept a city, if applicable
Ravensfire -
IIB.1.b - What about culture flips? It's a yay/nay question right then.

I'm surprised. Is it different in your game? In my Civ4 I cannot refuse a culture-flip-city! It's just there! There's a revolt in favor of my civ and eventually I get it. No choice whatsoever...

(15)

B. The President shall take no more than 6 of the nominations and hold an election for the next term's Secretary of State.

RavensFire -IIB.2.B - Nominated, but still not able to run? Unfair! Seriously - that's just not right with me.

Well this is sort of a mixture of appointment and nomination and it has been done on purpose!
But you pointed it out for good: It should say something like "no less than 3 (if 3 or more apply for the job) but no more than 6".

This has been done in order to grant the DP permission to sort of "choose" with whom he wants to rule without giving him power just to simply appoint his buddies! To me that's fine; think about the nomination as sort of an inner campaign and from this pool the DP decides with whom he would like to work!
To me it's a good system and maybe someone can explain what I mean in better words, otherwise I'll try again if asked! I hope I made myself clear...

(16)

IIC. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of War
1. The Secretary of War shall have control of all military land units with the exception of garrisons under the control of Governors and units assigned to settlers.
Ravensfire - IIC.1 - Who determines "garrison" and who assigns units to settlers?

You are right: This hasn't been adressed. But a garrison by definitíon is all defensive units within a city-radius under control of a gov.!
The Sec. of the Interior should work together with the gov.s to determine which units have to becom guards for settlers. It should be implemented like the line below

III.C. 2. The Minister of the Interior shall work with the Governors and create a plan of which city improvements shall be constructed in a city and when....

...Furthermore in this forum it has to be decided which units are to leave city radius and be guards for our settler-units or other purposes...
I stated that I wouldn't want a Sec. of the Interior if it's just me but if we have him lets use him! Otherwise I'd assign the duties of the Sec. of the Interior (with adding my suggestion above) to the DP AND/OR the tri.


(17)

A. The Secretary of War may move any military land units anywhere in our territory, unclaimed territory, enemy territory, or allied territory; unless otherwise specified.
IIC.1.A - Conflict here - SoW states "Move unit X to square Y". Square Y is in foreign control, no open borders. Conflict is that following the order would cause war, but SoW cannot declare war.

Nope: He simply isn't allowed to go there taking your example!
The game even asks if you are serious and want to go to war... If SoW nevertheless moves units in foreign territory it would be a major break of his area of authority, he should be impeached immediately and be sued and judged by the judiciary! (Maybe we should define some sets of penalties for this case regarding wether it was done by mistake or on purpose...

(18)

2. Outside of our territory or enemy territory the Secretary of War need the President's permission to move beyond a certain boundary of our borders.
Ravensfire - IIC.2 - Who determines boundary?

I agree that this rule should be cancelled and I stated it at the respective poll.

(19)

B. The President shall take no more than 6 nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Secretary of War.
Ravensfire -
IIC.5 - See objections to IIB.2 above.

same here - objections to objections... See no. 15

IIIB.5 - No impeachment? (Also for all other offices)

Agreed but this has been adressed in one of the polls...

(20)

1. The Minister of the Interior shall be in control of all workers not assigned to Governors.
2. The Minister of the Interior shall work with the Governors and create a plan of which city improvements shall be constructed in a city and when.IIIC.1 - Who assigns workers?
IIIC.2 - Who resolves disputes? Again, no problem with suggestions and working with Governors, but Governors must retain absolute control of their city.
IIIC.5 - Object to this - it's rather rude to toss someone aside during a war.

There are different views to this obviously and I'm for the possibility to have this in. Check the polls-threads for this! War IS rude, BTW.

(21)

4. The Minister of Culture may require a culture building to built in a City once every 4 buildings, if none of the previous 3 buildings was a culture building. And what type of building it shall be.

Ravensfire- IIID.4 - Again, abusing the poor Governors. I'd hate to be a Governor in this system, I'd have virtually no power, and the little I had would be subject to overrides.

First of all in another discussion my point was countered by you, Ravensfire by stating that I shouldn't underestimate the powers of gov's. Now that these powers get restricted it gets used as a counter-argument again...
Second: I doubt we will set up a Sec. of Culture anyways and if we do he should at least have SOME power... I'm pretty sure Wolf hereby tried to get as many citizens involved as possible...

(22)

IV. Vacancies should be filled by appointing a citizen to take over the office, not by having an already elected official take control of another office.

Well here (taken from (7))

Ravensfire - VA - 2 polls to impeach? Sheesh - by that time,the odds are the term is over!

I countered in (7) that there isn't a second vote for impeachment, here I counter you by yourself: A turn is only short and the game shouldn't be slowed down by this. Furthermore it won't harm the nature of the DG IMHO since very likely this situation will occur only for a short span and after that the position will get filled again. and appointing a citizen is less democratic than a poll, IMO.

(23)

I. Governors are the elected officials that run cities or provinces.
IA. The Powers and Duties of the Governors:
1. The Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radius.
2. The Governor shall work with the Minister of the Interior to decide which improvement shall be built.
3. In a Gubernatorial election the candidate with the greatest number of votes wins.

Ravensfire - 1A.3 - Probably not workable. I don't know if we'll have enough citizen for a Governor for each city. Rather, set up provinces or states that Governors control. Also, development of a city affects the entire nation, the entire nation should determine who governors are.

this obviously has been adressed, right?!?

(24)

Other comments -
Anything on the Judiciary, or is the Con. framework enough?

I don't know!

Elections - how would they work. It looks like elect the Speaker, the President and the Governors, THEN elect the Cabinet.

I understand it the same way.

(25)

Amendments - how to amend this? Requirements? The constitution has the ridiculously low threshold of 60% in support, no census. Would this require a higher standard? Lower?

To me there's nothing wrong to this. But I don't mind raising the bar as well...

----------
(26)
I hope this post will be regarded as constructive and not as , awesome, although I found it rather unfair to state support of the framework to the tri-government as not being profound... . when people state they find the work is awesome you might assume they like the overall view of it! Nevertheless critic always helps bringing things further and increasing quality so no offence meant here! (Seriously!)

(27)
In my post before I commented on a few things and asked some stuff but it got buried by the "attack" (just kidding, just kidding! ).

I will just re-post the "core-aspects":

Originally Posted by Alphawolf
VA. An impeachment will be held in the same manner as a floor vote. Impeachment removes the entire Triumvirate. This poll will be open 48 hours only, for the motion to carry at least 3/4 (75%) must have voted in favor.


Very good indeed! But for my personal taste 2/3 (66,66%) would be better... Could we make a poll about this special point??

Haven't seen this before either, but MAYBE (I'm open to discussion, folks!) the tri should be able to start an impeachment on every member of the cabinet...???

Concerning the positions of Minister of Culture and Science: no preempt-power for the President? Since they are controlling great people..................

Thanks for your patience and attention!

Stilgar

 

[ravensfire]

Stilgar08 - good points. This also would have prevented the problem of several of the sections I objected to being edited (notable example, the first A) II ). In general, I think this is an interesting, but over-complicated idea with a few absolute deal-breaker concepts (that may or may not be included in the final version).

Many of my comments are seeking details. It's one thing to say that something will happen, it's something else to say how that will happen. For example, the "Cabinet Officials will be any office that we the citizens deem necessary to have". Is the poll just posted? Any discussion needed? How are positions removed? If positions are created mid-term, how are they filled?

I'll try to respond to a few of your comments.

Not a strong argument. Why not? What's the problem? The speaker is more or less the coordinator of the Assembly who keeps track of what's going on. Necessary, I think.

My comment was on the inability of elected officials to vote under certain circumstances. To me, this violates a basic right (right to vote) and is rather against the idea of the DG. "Congrats, your elected! Too bad you can't vote about going to war ..." That just doesn't sit well with me.

Ravensfire: IIA - Can the Speaker refuse to post a floor vote?

The way I read this article he can't. It's not mentioned. And I don't think he should be able to stop a vote! It would give the speaker too much power...

I think you are correct, but where is the time limit for when he can? What prevents a Speaker from saying - "Sure, I'll post it ... at the end of the month." The previous version of this section also included the "May not be impeached from office".

I will use this against you below , but let me here just say that if you want a fast-paced game it shouldn't be a DG (I know; I'm being impertinent but I'm exaggerating to point out my inner-conflight with your statement..)

Originally, there were two polls needed to impeach. With discussion, and the time needed for the leader to screw up that badly, it would just about take the entire month to impeach someone!

Err, I don't know either! I'd assume it's the people who want to become Secretary of State, respectively War:

This is about nomination polls. Nothing drives me crazier to see a concept used, but not defined until later on. That makes reading very difficult.

Nevertheless I don't see how this can be abused, since when the DP or the tri uses their "stop-option", a poll will be held and the thing is decided.
Ergo: Proceed. when the DP stops again because of the very same issue I'd sue him! So the DP has to wait for the outcome of the vote and then proceeds...

Yup - and we actually have something similar in DGVII in that the DP can stop at any time, plus any leader can post a stop instruction. That's more of a "make you think about how turn chat's work". As for the on-line requirement, I've long been against that. DGVII allows for an off-line session, with some caveats.

This is implied in the powers of the governours and the Sec. of War:

Ahh, anything implied is liable to be interpreted differently. A quick, short sentence in each of these cases would quickly and easily handle the matter, and clarify it.

I don't have a personal opinion about this so I won't comment a lot, but I'd like to see what IIA.7.B was: It has been deleted and I'd like to see why!

If I recall, 7.B allowed one nomination per person.

I'm surprised. Is it different in your game? In my Civ4 I cannot refuse a culture-flip-city! It's just there! There's a revolt in favor of my civ and eventually I get it. No choice whatsoever...

Well, DG VII is running a variant, so we routinely decline them. Again, this is to force AW to consider the game, and the impact on the game to the rules. What needs to happen is a discussion on the matter prior to anything happening that would establish general guidelines for the DP to use.

Well this is sort of a mixture of appointment and nomination and it has been done on purpose!
But you pointed it out for good: It should say something like "no less than 3 (if 3 or more apply for the job) but no more than 6".

This has been done in order to grant the DP permission to sort of "choose" with whom he wants to rule without giving him power just to simply appoint his buddies! To me that's fine; think about the nomination as sort of an inner campaign and from this pool the DP decides with whom he would like to work!
To me it's a good system and maybe someone can explain what I mean in better words, otherwise I'll try again if asked! I hope I made myself clear...

Imagine you're a new player, and run for an office. What would your impression be if you particpate in the debates, get several comments of support, then aren't chose as one of the finalists because you don't know the Pres? That's just not a good way to run something like this.

You are right: This hasn't been adressed. But a garrison by definitíon is all defensive units within a city-radius under control of a gov.!
The Sec. of the Interior should work together with the gov.s to determine which units have to becom guards for settlers. It should be implemented like the line below

Ahhm, but who's definition? Again, this is an implied concept, that a quick phrase would easily correct.

Ravensfire- IIID.4 - Again, abusing the poor Governors. I'd hate to be a Governor in this system, I'd have virtually no power, and the little I had would be subject to overrides.

First of all in another discussion my point was countered by you, Ravensfire by stating that I shouldn't underestimate the powers of gov's. Now that these powers get restricted it gets used as a counter-argument again...
Second: I doubt we will set up a Sec. of Culture anyways and if we do he should at least have SOME power... I'm pretty sure Wolf hereby tried to get as many citizens involved as possible...

Ahh, but you missed the context of my comment. Governor's are powerful, but this proposal strips them of much of that power in many circumstances. Indeed, it's quite possible for MULTIPLE leaders to try to preempt the Governor, at the same time! The conflict, to me, should be from people trying to change the Governor's mind on issues. Based on that, elections can be fascinating. If I see a Governor that's not flexible, I will be greatly disinclined to voting for them. There will be conflict here. Some people want the Executive branch to have trump power, and the Governors beg, I want the opposite.

Originally Posted by Ravensfire
IV. Vacancies should be filled by appointing a citizen to take over the office, not by having an already elected official take control of another office.
Well here (taken from (7))
Quote:
Ravensfire - VA - 2 polls to impeach? Sheesh - by that time,the odds are the term is over!
I countered in (7) that there isn't a second vote for impeachment, here I counter you by yourself: A turn is only short and the game shouldn't be slowed down by this. Furthermore it won't harm the nature of the DG IMHO since very likely this situation will occur only for a short span and after that the position will get filled again. and appointing a citizen is less democratic than a poll, IMO.

So impeachment is the only reason that an office is vacant? Ah, but you have much to learn! Removal from office for banning, removal from office for Judicial punishment, citizen resigns, office not filled during elections.

I understand it the same way.

(On the election process) Again, this falls with "implied" rules. From past experience, I assure you that implied stuff can, has, and will cause problems.

-- Ravensfire

 

[DaveShack]

Wow, that was pretty detailed.

I gather from some of the comments that it is necessary to read through the whole thing again. No prob, gotta do that again eventually anyway.

One thing I've noticed up front. Unless at least 22 people vote no on the Constitution in the next couple of days, it will not be possible to have any poll require more than 60% to pass, because the maximum is pegged to the amount required to ratify an amendment. Anywhere that a higher standard is present will need to be lowered to match.

 

[Alphawolf]

Sorry for not answering questions before, the internet at my campus has hacked and this is the first that I been able to get one. I'll start answering questions directly.

@DS "Groupies"??? I smite thee

-the Wolf

 

[DaveShack]

Here are my comments. Some of the quotes got messed up, it was rather complicated.

The Government of the Triumvirate

Article 1 The Federal Government

A) The Legislative Branch
I. This branch consists of one house known as Citizens Assembly.

II. The Citizens Assembly shall consist of all citizens of the Nation. The Citizens Assembly shall be presided over by an elected Speaker.

IIA. The Powers and Duties of the Speaker:

1. The Speaker shall be in charge of all floor votes.
2. A floor vote may be called for by any member of the Citizens Assembly on any issue on which the Assembly has purview at any time.

A. To call a floor vote a member of the Citizens Assembly shall PM the Speaker. If the member is unable to PM the Speaker for what ever reason the Member shall post where appropriate.
​

​

It is never permissible to conduct DemoGame official business via PM or any other mechanism which is not visible in the forum. The member should just post the request.

B. After being asked to call a floor vote the Speaker shall post a thread in the discussions.

So if the Speaker is unavailable for a week, we can't have any floor votes?

C. If at least 3 other members post saying they agree to have a vote on that issue the Speaker shall open a poll.

Why do we need more people?

D. The poll will have three options: Yes/No/Abstain.
E. If the Yes votes number over 50% the measure shall have passed; if the Yes votes number exactly 50% or less the measure shall have failed.

3. The Deputy Speaker shall be the runner up in the election.

Are deputies in general defined, for example what their powers are?

4. The Speaker may be impeached, by a majority vote of the Citizens Assembly.

IIB. Restrictions on Assembly Rights on those holding elected offices.

I hope, that since this heading is now empty it means that the unacceptable restrictions on office holders participating in the assembly have been removed?

​

III. Only the Citizens Assembly may decide six things: Declare War/Make Peace/Alliance, to change civics, to begin construction on a Great Wonder/National Wonder/Project, what to do with great people, a change in Taxes (the science/treasury/culture meter) greater that 20% more than once every 5 turns, and where to build new cities.

Can the assembly make decisions other than by a floor vote? If not, this is an extremely bad idea.

IV. The Executive Branch must enforce a vote of the Citizens Assembly even if they disagree with the decision.

V. The Citizens Assembly may bring an impeachment/no confidence vote against the Triumvirate.

VA. An impeachment will be held in the same manner as a floor vote. Impeachment removes the entire Triumvirate. This poll will be open 48 hours only, for the motion to carry at least 7/10 (70%) must have voted in favor. If the motion is carried the Triumvirate is removed from office.
​

​

The Constitution, as currently being ratified, limits this to 60%.
I would rather see an impeachment remove one official, not the entire Triumvirate. As written this has no teeth because most of the time one or two of the Tri will be so indispensible that an impeachment could never pass. Also why fire one or two good leaders for the sins of someone they have no power to control?

B) The Executive Branch
I. This branch consists of the Triumvirate and any and all elected and appointed Cabinet Officials and their deputies.

IA. The Triumvirate will consist of the President, Secretary of State, and the Minister of War.
IB. The Cabinet Officials will be any office that we the citizens deem necessary to have that is not included as part of the Triumvirate, the Judiciary, a Gubernatorial office or the Designated Player. The Cabinet shall consist of the Censor, Minister of Interior, Minster of Culture, Minister of Science, and Director of Intelligence.
​

​

This is self-contradictory. The first sentence says any office the citizens deem necessary, the second sentence limits it to exactly 5 people.

​

II. The Powers and Duties or the Triumvirate.

IIA. The Powers and Duties of the President

1. The President nominates candidates from the nomination pool the Secretary of State and Minister of War.
​

​

Define "nomination pool". Also as I have noted at least one other place, it is totally unacceptable for the President to leave off a nominee that someone else has nominated.

2. During the Turnchat the President, or a Representative of the President, may order the ending of the game for a poll vote, i.e.: war, peace, change in Tax, change in Civics, where to build a new cities, or any thing else he deems appropriate and must abide by the outcome of said vote.

• I think you mean "stop play" and not "end the game". Someone unfamiliar with our terminology might think the latter means END the game, as in retire.
• In the past we have given all officials the right to set "stop conditions" after which play must stop. Also we do not normally allow any orders to be given during a turnchat. People at the chat may give advice, and it is up to the DP to accept it or not. This is something which could be changed, but expect a major uphill battle once it becomes clear what you're suggesting.

3. President is the only officer that may ask the Citizens Assembly for a Declaration of WAR.

Nice sentiment, but any member of the assembly may ask the Speaker to call a floor vote on this or any other question.

4. The units the President controls:

A. The President shall control all Settler and the defensive units assigned to them.
B. The President shall control all naval units.
​

​

Having the President control the navy and not the Secretary of War is an exceedingly bad idea. Sure this is supposed to be cooperation so they wouldn't do things without the other being aware, but mess up sending the navy to a different place than the troops are being loaded from, and we might lose the war.

​

5. The President may with the unanimous consent of the Triumvirate ask the Citizens Assembly for permission to begin work on a Great Wonder/Project.

Any citizen can ask for this, you cannot give the President less power than a citizen has.

6. During War time the President may preempt the control of workers.

What makes workers special in this regard? Generally I'm against "preempt" powers, but this specific example caught my attention even more.

7. The President shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.

A. The nominations for President may not be self nominations.
​

​

• The constitution (ratification pending) specifically says that the person with the most votes wins regardless of percentages. This cannot contradict the constitution.
• I'm also against restricting self nominations. If this rule stands you can expect me to nominate everyone in the citizen's registry.

8. The President shall have the power of the Secretary of State and the Secretary of War.
​

This is obviously a cut & paste error.

​

​

IIB. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of State

1. The Secretary of State shall have control of the Foreign policy of our nation with the exception in the Declaration of War/Peace/Alliance and trade of cities.

A. The Secretary of State needs the permission of the Citizens Assembly: War/Peace/Alliance or the giving away of one of our Nation's cities.
​

​

Umm, this contradicts the President's powers with regards to war.

B. The Secretary of State needs the permission of the Triumvirate to accept a city, if applicable.

What kind of permission? How would this work in practice -- in general we may not know in advance a city will be offered, and if it's anything like it is in Civ3 there is no option to save the game and pick up later.

C. Secretary of State needs the permission of the President in any deal in which we loose more than 1/5 (20%) of our Treasury.

Well, technically in a trade we don't loose (sic) any of the treasury, we choose to exchange it for something of nominally equal value. This permission thing is a problem for me, it's not a game of "mother may I". If we must have something like this, let's say someone (President, or other) is responsible for setting a budget. The SoS can spend anything up to the budget limit, without having to ask permission every time.

​

2. The nomination and election of The Secretary of State shall be held as follows:

A. Nominations for Secretary of State may be self nominations or a candidate may be nominated by someone else.
B. The President shall take no more than 6 of the nominations and hold an election for the next term's Secretary of State.
​

​

This implies the President is allowed to choose who is in the election. No way, this violates everything the Democracy game is about. The people get to choose who gets a position, except that they are denied their choice if that person is not on the ballot. That right may not be taken away.

C. The Secretary of State shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Write in candidates are allowed in the general election but not in the runoff. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.

This violates the Constitution-in-waiting, see above.

​

IIC. The Powers and Duties of the Secretary of War

1. The Secretary of War shall have control of all military land units with the exception of garrisons under the control of Governors and units assigned to settlers.

A. The Secretary of War may move any military land units anywhere in our territory, unclaimed territory, enemy territory, or allied territory; unless otherwise specified.​

2. Outside of our territory or enemy territory the Secretary of War need the President's permission to move beyond a certain boundary of our borders.

A. The Secretary of War may not attack a city or unit of a neutral or allied Civilization.​

3. The Secretary of War shall have complete control of all air units.
4. During War time the Secretary of War may take control of any unit assigned as a garrison to a City as long as the city is left with at least one left.
​

​

Leaving just one garrison left is a bad idea. In case you haven't heard, the AIs now have the ability to wage offensive war effectively.

5. The nomination and election of the Secretary of War shall be held as follows:

A. Nominations for Secretary of War may be self nominations or a candidate may be nominated by someone else.
B. The President shall take no more than 6 nominations and hold a poll for the next term's Secretary of War.
C. The Secretary of War shall be elected in a poll of all citizens, if the candidate with the most votes receives less that 1/3 (33%) of the votes a runoff will be held unless the winning candidate has 10% more votes that the candidate with the second highest number of votes. Write in candidates are allowed in the general election but not in the runoff. Said runoff will be between the two candidates with the highest number of votes.
​

​

Ditto comment on Constitution.

​

III. The Cabinet

IIIA. The Cabinet shall consist of, in order of seniority, the Censor, Minister of Interior, Minster of Culture, Minister of Science, and Director of Intelligence.
​

​

What purpose does seniority have?

IIIB. The Powers and Duties of the Censor:

1. The Censor be in charge of maintaining the Census and shall be the Official in charge of all elections.
2. Censor shall be responsible for the official results of an election and for validating an election.
3. The Censor is also responsible for validating any other official polls.
4. The nomination and election for the Censor shall be held as follows:

A. Nominations for Censor may be self nominations or a candidate may be nominated by someone else.
B. The Censor shall be the candidates with the highest number of votes.
C. The Deputy Censor shall be appointed by the Censor.​

5. The Censor may not be impeached.​

IIIC. The Powers and Duties of the Minister of Interior:

1. The Minister of the Interior shall be in control of all workers not assigned to Governors.
2. The Minister of the Interior shall work with the Governors and create a plan of which city improvements shall be constructed in a city and when.
3. The Minister of the Interior shall keep track of the resources in our territory and where they are.
4. The Minister of the Interior shall control all Great Engineers.
​

​

This contradicts the powers of the assembly, who control all Great People.

5. These control of workers may be preempted by the President during War time.
6. The nomination and election for the Minister of the Interior shall be held as follows:

A. Nominations for Minister of the Interior may be self nominations or a candidate may be nominated by someone else.
B. The Minister of the Interior shall be the candidates with the highest number of votes.
C. The Deputy Minister of the Interior shall be appointed by the Minister of the Interior.​

6. The Minister of the Interior may not be impeached.

IIID. Powers and Duties of the Minister of Culture:

1. The Minister of Culture shall keep track of the Culture buildings in each city, the Culture of each city, and the religions in each city throughout the Empire, and shall may this information available to any citizen upon request.
2. The Minister of Culture shall control all Great Artists, Great Merchants, and Great Prophets.
3. The Minister of Culture shall be in charge of all Missionaries.
4. The Minister of Culture may require a culture building to built in a City once every 4 buildings, if none of the previous 3 buildings was a culture building. And what type of building it shall be.
5. The nomination and election for the Minister of the Culture shall be held as follows:

A. Nominations for Minister of the Culture may be self nominations or a candidate may be nominated by someone else.
B. The Minister of the Culture shall be the candidates with the highest number of votes.
C. The Deputy Minister of the Culture shall be appointed by the Minister of the Culture.​

6. The Minister of the Culture may not be impeached.​

IIIE. Powers and Duties of the Minister of Science:

1. The Minister of Science shall choose what technology will be researched.
2. The Minister of Science shall keep a list of at least three technologies that are to be researched next and in what order.

A. This list is subject to the review and revision of the Citizens Assembly.​

3. The Minister of Science shall control all Great Scientists.
4. The nomination and election for the Minister of the Science shall be held as follows:

A. Nominations for Minister of the Science can be self nominations or a candidate can be nominated by someone else.
B. The Minister of the Science shall be the candidates with the highest number of votes.
C. The Deputy Minister of the Science shall be appointed by the Minister of the Science.​

5. The Minister of the Science may not be impeached.​

IIIF. Powers and Duties of the Director of Intelligence:

1. The Director of Intelligence shall keep records of all known Empires; the cities, religion, military units, wonders, and civics of those Empires. Records shall also be kept of the size, religion, improvements, and anything else deemed necessary about their cities.
2. The Director of Intelligence shall have complete control of all spies.
3. The Director of Intelligence shall be appointed by the Triumvirate.
4. The Director of Intelligence, being an appointed position, shall not be affected by term limits.
5. The Director of Intelligence may not be impeached.​

IV. Vacancies

IVA. Should a vacancy occur in the Triumvirate the President shall take over the duties of the vacant office. Should the President be the vacant office the Secretary of State shall take over the duties of the President. Should both the offices of President and Secretary of State be vacant the Secretary of War shall take over the duties of both offices. Should the entire Triumvirate be vacant the most senior of the Cabinet members shall take over the duties of Triumvirate.
​

​

Why not have deputies for the Triumvirate? If the whole Tri disappeared, the Censor would have complete control over elections, nominations, and the government itself?

IVB. Should any vacancy occur in the Cabinet or in the office of Speaker the Deputy shall take over the duties of that office. The word acting shall be included in the title of office. Should there not be a deputy the President shall appoint an acting office holder.

Article 2 The Local Government

A) Governors
I. Governors are the elected officials that run cities or provinces.

IA. The Powers and Duties of the Governors:

1. The Governors may move any workers or garrison units assigned to them anywhere in there city's radius.
2. The Governor shall work with the Minister of the Interior to decide which improvement shall be built.
3. In a Gubernatorial election the candidate with the greatest number of votes wins.
4. Governors may not be impeached.
​

 

[Stilgar08]

I'm happy, that we are on constructive grounds here, folks!

I'll wait with my reply until Wolf finds the time to answer some stuff and state HIS opinions or until I find the time to get back to this topic. Now I'm gonna check out the other government-set-up's... (I'm a bit busy right now...)

Wolf: If you change the tri-gov to version 4.2. please do so by putting ref.no. where you changed it in the first post and leaving the changed paragraphs below (or something similar - Gee, this gets rather complicated). Ok?

 

[Swissempire]

I think this Gov has its pros and its cons, but it seems much more complete and perefected than the others. Its a good change from otheres, and a fresh idea that all members, Vet and Noob, can explore.

For the above reasons i urge you to:

GO TO POLLS AND VOTE FOR THE TRIUMVIRATE GOVERNMENT. LOVE YOUR COUNTRY, LOVE YOUR PEOPLE, VOTE TRI

sry bout that, just trying to rally the troops

 

[DaveShack]

I had hoped my questions would be answered before I have to vote on which proposal is used for the first game...

 

[Alphawolf]

Please check you inbox DS.

-the Wolf

 

[Swissempire]

Good goverment Alpha.

I fully support it, but urge a comprimise or a mmerger of the Triumvirate with the Political Evolution Theory(previously known as the "Flexible").

If no one agrees thats fine, but it would add a lot.

On a seperate note the only thing i would suggest changeing now is a defintion of the deputy speakers powers, and Wonder powers taken from the Assembly and given to a joint descion by the Minister of Culture, the Goverener of said city, and appoval by at least 1 triumvirate member.
The citiziens assembly should have the power to halt the production of a wonder, or may vote a resoltuion recommending one, but this should be a joint governner and minister of culture power.

My two cents(factor in inflation over the 6000 of the game and i'm a friggin trillionaire)

 

[DaveShack]

I fully support it, but urge a comprimise or a mmerger of the Triumvirate with the Political Evolution Theory(previously known as the "Flexible").

That's easy, just incorporate the fine example of language regulating how offices are added and subtracted found here.

On a seperate note the only thing i would suggest changeing now is a defintion of the deputy speakers powers, and Wonder powers taken from the Assembly and given to a joint descion by the Minister of Culture, the Goverener of said city, and appoval by at least 1 triumvirate member.
The citiziens assembly should have the power to halt the production of a wonder, or may vote a resoltuion recommending one, but this should be a joint governner and minister of culture power.

This is another example of a comment about this government style which makes me really queasy.

It's always the citizens' choice (in Triumvirate terms the assembly's choice) on how we do everything. Comments like these that talk about "taking wonder powers from the assembly and giving them to culture/governor/tri member" wave a red flag in my face that some people don't get it.

We elect a leader to run a particular area. If we're happy with what that leader is doing and agree with the decisions being made, it makes it look like the leader has sole responsibility for making those decisions. This is most definitely not the case. We've ratified a constitution that says a majority of the people can override (or confirm btw) any leader's decision on any matter at any time.

 

[Alphawolf]

I agree with DS any powers given to the assembly should stay there.

To all: please see version 5.0 HERE.

-the Wolf

 

[Alphawolf]

Sorry I just now getting around to answering your questions and concerns but I promise you that when I was writing v5.0 I had a printed off copy of this so your comments were very helpful.

I’ll comment on parts that are still pertinent.

Following quotes by Ravensfire until states other wise.

IIB.1.b - What about culture flips? It's a yay/nay question right then.

Not in any game of Civ4 that I have played, you are told after a city has revolted to your side.

Elections - how would they work. It looks like elect the Speaker, the President and the Governors, THEN elect the Cabinet.

No, all elections happen at one time; I would like to know where this idea comes from.

Following quotes by Stilgar08 until stated otherwise

One "critical thing which I see in this kind of government as well is, that Wolf assumes it as mandatory to be online when you're a member of the tri. I don't like that and other ways for this should be found...

Sorry, I didn’t assume I forgot to include better language.

So the defense-units for the settlers must be the ones meant. Right, Wolf?

Yes.

Nope: He simply isn't allowed to go there taking your example!
The game even asks if you are serious and want to go to war... If SoW nevertheless moves units in foreign territory it would be a major break of his area of authority, he should be impeached immediately and be sued and judged by the judiciary! (Maybe we should define some sets of penalties for this case regarding wether it was done by mistake or on purpose...

Yep, that would be an illegal order and should not be followed by the DP.

I will just re-post the "core-aspects":

VA. An impeachment will be held in the same manner as a floor vote. Impeachment removes the entire Triumvirate. This poll will be open 48 hours only, for the motion to carry at least 3/4 (75%) must have voted in favor.

Very good indeed! But for my personal taste 2/3 (66,66%) would be better... Could we make a poll about this special point??

Because of the Newly Ratified Constitution, nothing can require more that 6/10 (60%)

Haven't seen this before either, but MAYBE (I'm open to discussion, folks!) the tri should be able to start an impeachment on every member of the cabinet...???

The fear of the Triumvirate having to much power is too great for that to happen.

Concerning the positions of Minister of Culture and Science: no preempt-power for the President? Since they are controlling great people.................

I did not want the President or the Triumvirate to have too much control.

I'm surprised. Is it different in your game? In my Civ4 I cannot refuse a culture-flip-city! It's just there! There's a revolt in favor of my civ and eventually I get it. No choice whatsoever...

Well, DG VII is running a variant, so we routinely decline them. Again, this is to force AW to consider the game, and the impact on the game to the rules. What needs to happen is a discussion on the matter prior to anything happening that would establish general guidelines for the DP to use.

Ravensfire, have you ever had a city flip to your side in Civ4? There is no pop up asking if you want it, you are just told about you new city in the next turn.

Following quotes by DaveShack unless otherwise stated.

What kind of permission? How would this work in practice -- in general we may not know in advance a city will be offered, and if it's anything like it is in Civ3 there is no option to save the game and pick up later.

It was for accepting cities in regard to peace. The Triumvirate would work out a list of cities that could be demanded and which ones it wanted more.

Leaving just one garrison left is a bad idea. In case you haven't heard, the AIs now have the ability to wage offensive war effectively.

I’ve heard about it and fought against the better AI. I not say saying the Secretary of War has to too, so I don’t see your point.

-the Wolf