TSG46 After Action Report

[DrZ]

Game status: Domination Victory
Turns played: 193

Will not submit because my first try i rushed for Elephants and didn't work in a timely manner.

Lessons learned:

1. CBs rushes are far more powerful than Horseman rushes, even if the Horseman is a unique unit, and stronger than the original.

Elephant rush turn 100: killed only Byzantium
CB rush turn 100: killed Byzantium, Germany and attacked Maya.

2. After patch pillage is awesome, i started to plan what tile to pillage with what unit, it really helps keeping your units alive longer.

3. Walking over mountains is preferable to walking over rough terrain (kinda stupid, but if it wasn't like this your unit will get stuck on the mountain and get attrition damage...)

4. Building a road towards the place you attack helps A LOT. (thanks tabarnak for the lesson).

I would also be most interested in seeing how tommynt managed to win in 88!!! turns.

 

[Attaturk]

Game: Civ5 GOTM 46
Date submitted: 2012-11-06
Reference number: 27616
Your name: Attaturk
Game status: Domination Victory
Game date: 580AD
Turns played: 139
Base score: 741
Final score: 2744
Time played: 2:06:00
Renamed file: Attaturk_C504601.Civ5Save

One city liberty compass rush ignoring religion. Placed 2nd city when I finish Liberty on the coast, reaching marble and fish.

1st group of 5 galleas and melee ship went to capture Rome, Paris and Istambul.
2nd group of 4 galleas and melee ship went to capture Maya and Williams (and Later Berlin becase my 3rd group was slow)
3rd group of crossbows ended up capturing Byzantine cities.

Liberty was to get a GS.

Wonders: GL - NC - Lighthouse - Oracle

I missed that we had a lot of cultural states, I could have gotten compass much faster if I have payed attention to them.

 

[Arnold_T]

originally had a typo in the post title. shoulda been t86, not t96

Fun game, thanks H.R.!

I played this tommynt style. Abuse the AI's to the max for their gold.
No Wonders, No Libraries, No Granaries.
No Religion. (happened to get a Pantheon by wandering by a couple of Religious CSs though ... took +1 Prod for cities >= 3 pop)

Settled on the Gold. 2nd city Utique on the hill by the river between the Sugars at t25. 3rd city (with 4th settler) Hippo Regius t39 on the Salt SE of Carthage.


3rd settler marched east with Army #1. note GG enroute as well. first two social policies were Honour, and GG. after that I don't think the social policies really matter much.


Army 1: four archers, warrior, and settler marched eest. founded Gades (city #4) t48 on Copper hill west of Rome. upgraded archers to CBs.
took out Rome t55, Orleans T69. Paris T79. Paris was tough. first attack was aborted. took Paris on the second surge. Istanbul went down t86.
Army 2: warrior and four archers upgraded to CBs at Hippo Regius, city southeast of Carthage
and took out Tikal t60, Palenque t67, Rotterdam t73, Amsterdam t82.
Army 3: a rag-tag bunch, marched last and took out Adrianople t69, Constantinople t76, Berlin t84.

The one move that saved me a few turns and probably resulted in my faster-than-tommynt finish was trading Paris to the Ottomans for the size-1 city (Ankara) that was standing between Army1 and Istanbul. He wanted not only Paris, but a ton of gold/turn and luxuries too. No problem, I gave it all to him went to -17 happy, but then promptly declared war and got it back. waited 1 turn till Ankara was able to build units and started buying units there right on Istanbul's doorstep!



the funnest part was ...

Being a Hannibal-fanatic I was really hoping to march some elephants over some mountains into battle at some point.

With five AI caps down, Berlin close to falling, and only Istanbul left to finish, I bought an elephant in Orleans and marched it over the Alps towards Istanbul.

My Great General (who sadly was NOT named Hannibal!) surveyed the battlefield as elephants captured Istanbul for the win ...

 

[Hammer Rabbi]

glad you enjoyed it. and another sub-100 win! nicely done!

 

[Arnold_T]

thanks! I'm going to do a replay. I think this one can be done in under 80 turns.

 

[Ribannah]

Perhaps, but that reduces the game to a units rush. I'd enjoy Tabarnak's approach a lot more, but my game got overtaken by the patch.

 

[Tabarnak]

Nice one Arnold

Here is your new Avatar :



Lesson learned : Emperor or below...don't even bother with Machinery. Classical units are enough.

 

[tommynt]

I do think cbs are enough to kill deity ai aswell - its just that it starts with these outpost cities and it takes longer to take the capital meaning that latest after like 2x2 (2 armies each like 7 units) kills the next civs are really kinda big.

But a cb rush should be a good way to cheese a win on deity - as u r just so big after ..

Well maybe its bit unrealistic to get 2 armies big enough on deity - not sure .. - guess with some brokken gold deals ....

 

[Arnold_T]

Perhaps, but that reduces the game to a units rush.

yes, exactly.
No Wonders. No Libraries. No Granaries.
which is what I did.
shoulda also done No Monuments.
first ten builds are:
Scout
Worker
Archer
Archer
Archer
Archer
Archer
Archer
Archer
Archer
... buying Settlers with gold (tommynt style).

 

[Arnold_T]

Nice one Arnold

Here is your new Avatar :



.

I like it! maybe if I get a medal this game I'll adopt it for a while.

 

[Tabarnak]

I do think cbs are enough to kill deity ai aswell - its just that it starts with these outpost cities and it takes longer to take the capital meaning that latest after like 2x2 (2 armies each like 7 units) kills the next civs are really kinda big.

But a cb rush should be a good way to cheese a win on deity - as u r just so big after ..

Well maybe its bit unrealistic to get 2 armies big enough on deity - not sure .. - guess with some brokken gold deals ....

Immortal post patch is pretty hard with CBs already against natural warmongers. The AI is rush buying a lot more units. Very interesting!(Less gold to suck from them too )

I like it! maybe if I get a medal this game I'll adopt it for a while.

I bet 20 bucks that you gonna get the silver trophy!

 

[glory7]

Hello,

This is my first posting on the civfanatics forum. I haven't played civ5 for a while after I was disappointed (I compared it to civ4 BTS, one of the best games, so it might not be a fair comparison) at the vanillar version after 60 hours of playtime. I got back when Gods & kings came out, and in my opinion this expansion is much better to play.

I learned that this site had gotm for GK and decided to give it a try. I submitted TSG47 first and waited on hotfix (auto-annexing bug) but realized that I might not have time to finish it if I wait more as due date is coming in 3 days. One of my friends told me that if I save right before the city capture and load it that auto-annex bug would not happen, so I started this one.

Game: Civ5 GOTM 46
Date submitted: 2012-11-12
Reference number: 27649
Your name: glory7
Game status: Domination Victory
Game date: 640AD
Turns played: 142
Base score: 1143
Final score: 4082
Time played: 3:02:00
Submitted save: TSG46_142_glory7_DomVic.Civ5Save
Renamed file: glory7_C504601.Civ5Save

Basically, I just used my multiplayer strategy - liberty mass expo and composite rush. In multiplayer games, I usually need to hit xbows to finish the game, but with king level AI I thought I would not need it. Well, that was not false but I would done better if I planned to upgrade xbows at certain time at the beginning of the game.

To start, I sent warrior to the left hill to check out the terrain. While I knew that Dido has free harbor and it would be great to settle on the coast at turn 0, the gold spot was too tempting - I couldn't resist it. I moved my settler and found cap on the top of gold hill. I saw marble later and glad to see 4 lux (gold, salt, sugar, and marble). Also, it had 3 cows and one horse tile - great for pop growth and prod later, especially with a stable.

At the cap, I built scout - monument - scout - granary - warrior - archers and settlers (pop was 6 when I started making settlers after getting a free one from liberty)- stone work - stable/pyramid - units. For expos, I got monument/granary and archers/units.

Got 2 workers from nearby CS and settled on the hill next to mt. sinai. That was around turn 45 and third city (around turn 50) was on the hill next to 2 sugars and one wheat (4 tiles left-down from cap). By this time, I realized that I got 2 civs on my left 2 on my right (rome and france), and still need to find 2 more.

I found several nice spots to expo and didn't really need happiness for a while, so I mass expoed. settled 4th city on the salt (about 7 tiles right to the cap position) and went on. Settled on silk around t65, spice (near maya and dutch), copper (near rome cap), salt (on the way to silk city, on the river), and truffle (on the way to byz). I think I built 9 cities.

I delayed construction as much as possible and saved ton of gold for upgrade. Afterthought, I think I should have chosen motg (+2 sci) instead of craftsman (+1 hammer) pantheon. I upgraded every archer on turn 96 and started war. I thought I could finish in 25-30 turns as I had 4-5 CB and 2 elephants for three directions (west, to byz and germany, east, to rome and france, south, to maya and dutch). Well, it took much more than that and I eventually upgraded CBs to xbows in the end.

Like Tabarnak, I built a long-long highway. I got pyramid at t79 and already built 10 roads to east. After t79, all workers were building roads to connect cities for +1 happy, trade route income, and for faster movement. I had 2400 gold at t95 (right before starting wars) as I worried that upgrades and maintenance cost a lot. Well, I saved too much. In the end, I built a road from berlin to byz cap, my cap, rome, maya cap, dutch cap, paris. Almost finished building roads to istanbul. In the end, "97 spent on tile improvement maintenance", but 108 from trade routes too.

It took me around 20 turns to finish off paris and istanbul. paris had 28 def and it was pretty hard to capture that well-positioned city with high def. I had to use citadel.

1. How have the changes affected your strategy and game planning?
- I think this question refers to the changes from the vanillar version, but I would answer this in terms of recent patch. I forgot to save and load right before the city capture when I started the war, so I could not liberate CS that byz conquered and annexed it instead. That annex unhappiness was a big problem for me, and I think it costed me at least 2-3 turns. One good change was pillage - I could heal and get gold while attacking! that seriously reduced my need for additional melee units.

2. How did you use religion or spying to your advantage?
- no spying for this game, and my religion choice was bad. I got craftsmen pantheon, but I should have chosen motg or sacred rivers. It would have saved me at least 5 turns. for religion, I focused on happniess and hammers as by the time I found religion (t77, enhancement at t119) I didn't really need gold. I got ceremonial burial (+1 happy), religious community and added asceticism (shrine gives +1 happy) and itinerant preachers. Happiness from religion was critical in my mass expo/warmongering.

3. How did your opponents affect your strategy?
- not much. I haven't played king difficulty for a while, so I overestimated them. I was surprised to see that they didn't have many units to def. They didn't have enough gold/not willing to pay "standard" sum of 240 many times and that annoyed me a bit.

(sorry for no pictures - I don't know how to add screenshots - will add if some ppl request.)

 

[leif erikson]

Hello,

This is my first posting on the civfanatics forum.

Welcome to CivFanatics and GOTM.

You may post screen shots in two ways.
The first is to attach them using manage attachments below the reply window when you make a post. There is a list of file types you can attach. You cannot directly attach a screen shot from Civ5 as it is a .tga file so you must convert it to jpg, jpeg or png type. Free programs are available to do so. Copy the link from the attachment you create and place it in image tags.

Second, you can use a photo service and link your screen shots to here by placing the url inside of image tags . You can instead simply mouse over the icons above the reply window and you will find "insert image".

Best of luck in future games.

 

[Arnold_T]

I've updated my after-action post (11-posts above) with more details and pictures.

I think my game was pretty similar to tommynt's. His post doesn't say where he settled, but I think it must have been on the gold as well. I've tried replaying settling on the coast, but it's definately a slower start. In one of tommy's posts he suggested building two armies, but I don't see how you can take out all seven AI caps in under 100 turns with only two armies. I think you need three armies.

I only used one outpost settler (with army#1 headed for Rome) instead of tommynt's two. You don't need two if you build Hippo Regis on the salt south east of Carthage.

I decided to play this game tommynt style (no HoF-rules) because the TSG/GOTM moderators have made it very clear that this competition is not being run under HoF-rules ... and I find it annoying to lose by 50 turns.
I also used some of tommynt's tips from previous tommynt dom victories (like don't worry about science, and save the closest AIs to finish off last - it's the farthest AIs that you need to find and worry about the most).

It was interesting playing tommynt-style, and I learned some things.

Without the restrictions of the HoF rules you can cities up much faster. As soon as the total gold available in the game (your own gold, plus the gold owned by AIs you've met) goes over 500 you can trade to get it all and buy a settler. Just do something like: trade with Germany to get all his gold, declare war, trade same stuff with France to get all his gold, declare war, trade with Byz to get all her gold. No problem that you're at war with multiple AIs because you are building military faster than anyone else and about 10 turns later they all sue for peace, some of them offering great deals along with it (more gold and gold/turn). Then you can do the same thing again with a new bunch of AIs that you meet.

Also learned that bullying the City States is very effective when you've got the biggest baddest military on the planet. I think I must have extracted about 1000 gold from the CSs. Cahokia was a great friend that I didn't abuse too much because I needed the happy faces they were giving me. Though I also learned that you can extract gold from an ally and they can still remain your ally (your influence just goes down by 15).

Also learned that sometimes it's much faster and easier to buy a city off an enemy than it is to take it by force. Only works if your diplomatic status with them isn't too bad, you are buying a small city from them, and offer them an amazing deal. In this game I traded Paris and luxes for Ankara, saving a few turns. I've tried replaying and have only been able to finish 1 turn faster (t85) partly because I wasn't able to do that same trick. If the Ottmans build their second city in the path from Paris to Istanbul you are unlikely to be able to get them to trade it away. only works if they build their third city (Ankara) there, and build their second city north west of Istanbul. There's still quite a bit of luck in the game even without ruins (e.g.where AIs decide to build their cities, what quests the CSs give you, etc.). I still think it's possible to get t80 in this game if you get lots of good luck.

 

[glory7]

I've updated my after-action post (11-posts above) with more details and pictures.

I tried a replay after reading your report and finished at t92. Taking Rome took 2 more turns then I expected as rome expoed at a good spot right before my attack. Also, getting istanbul took long.

I went calendar before construction as I thought I needed to sell/use 3 sugars, but afterthought I think that it would have been better if I just get bows like 5 turns earlier and attack (then Rome might have not had 2nd city).

After trying one by myself, I have to believe that this strategy actually works and works well. I wonder it would be possible to use similar one at higher level, say immortal or even deity.

 

[Arnold_T]

I went calendar before construction as I thought I needed to sell/use 3 sugars, but afterthought I think that it would have been better if I just get bows like 5 turns earlier and attack (then Rome might have not had 2nd city).

After trying one by myself, I have to believe that this strategy actually works and works well. I wonder it would be possible to use similar one at higher level, say immortal or even deity.

Yes, definately get Construction first, Sugars later. Sugars are good to have later but you don't need them to get all the gold you need to attack. and don't worry too much about being -1 to -9 happy either. (also, btw, constrict city growth after you have Constuction, it just adds to unhappiness).

i don't know first hand how well it works at immortal and deity, but tommynt claims it works just as well or even better because the AIs have more gold to give you.

I'm not sure how much the fall patch and the hot-fix affect the strategy. It seems that the AI have less gold now, and you have to trade them for their gold before they spend it on units (<200 gold). even still, it seems the AIs have more units, which makes me think they are building more units than they used to (even economy builder/expnaders AIs like Rome seem to be building more units than they used to). So I'm not sure if t86 in this game is possible anymore after the fall patch. t92 is a good time.

 

[Tabarnak]

These ''no rules'' games will not exist in a close future. There is a main reason why some rules need to be implemented. The logical behavior.

There is no logic to let an AI give away all their stuff without thinking that they can lose everything the turn after. A deal should take 30 turns no matter if you DoW or they DoW you. It's simple as that(same for barb pillaging). It's the only way to keep a strong rule simple and pretty effective. You want something by force? You gonna pay for it. You might make profits from it, but you will still suffer in some manners.

But, for now, it's not in the game and i applause all players that can make an effective use of these present aspects Whatever the rules, best players will always find a way to suck all the juice possible for a good game

I never tried such things because i don't feel that it's the right way of play even if devs ''forgot'' about it. I said that i played ''a la'' tommy style in the Spain game but it was only about the warmonger thing(no get all the stuff and DoW thing). Even in mp it's pretty hard to play like this(cs bullying is still strong though).

Since the AI will blow his money in units more often it will probably be harder to make peace with them at least for high levels.

 

[Arnold_T]

These ''no rules'' games will not exist in a close future.

I guess you're talking about the develoment of a HoF mod now that the dlls are available. I certainly agree with you that the game needs to be fixed to give the AI some protection. The AI definately needs more Intelligence when it comes to trading. If that's too hard to do, then those kind of quick fixes to the trade mechanics you suggest is probably the best way to go.

to those who argue that would change the game, or that the devs would have fixed it by now if they thought it was a problem, I think we have to recognize that the devs produce a game for the mass market and the game works just fine for 99% of the people who buy it and play it casually. The devs don't really have the time and resources to address the needs of the 1% of the market who push the envelope as we do here. I think we need to take control and decide as a group what makes sense in the Civ5 Hof-mod.