Tupac02-Ghandi the Conqueror AWE

[markh]

Sounds like you've got us a strong start on Babylon Markh, I'll make sure I don't screw it up. Babylon, and the Great Lighthouse, you're next

I fear it will not be sufficient what we have there and we have no safe path to Babylon, so we will lose troops on the way there. As mentioned I lost 7 galleys in treacherous waters on the way back home, so our fleet got very small. We desperately need the Great Lighthouse to be able to ship troops there safely. The Perisans and Aztecs will appear soon at Ur and they will have better units than Hammi. For the next shipment of troops I would go directly for the city with the Great Lighthouse as Hammi has spears and Bowmen only. I should have done that as the first target, but I did not expect him to be that cowardish. I think this was a major mistake from my side. Sorry, guys.

 

[tupaclives]

Great Library is in Tenotchitlan. Will be difficult to get and although I feel it will be necessary to win it is not a short term goal.

Pre-flight Check

Everything looks alrite, do some MM but all that does is add beakers, can't get our deficit any better.

Short term goals

Babylon! Get that city, we get the Great Lighthouse and then we can actually get troops to the new continent.
Priority: Huge
Get more troops to new continent. We need defenders and more offensive troops to continue our assault. Switch all unit builds to WE back home as the defend like pikes (our best defensive unit) and have the highest attack of anything we can build.
Priority: Important, but will depend on getting Babylon.

Mid-term goals

Locate Tenotchitlan. This will be difficult as we can't buy maps, it may require some suicide units to find.
Priority: Secondary
Capture Great Library: This will also be difficult and is dependant on first finding Tenotchitlan
Priority: Huge, but dependant on all previous goals to be accomplished first.

Long term goals:
Palace on the new continent (this could be achieved quickly depending on luck with elites).
Forge an empire on the new continent (will take a long time).

Lets go!

IBT - As I watch enemy ships move around I see Chinese borders to our south, looks like there was an island there. Doesnt matter as we couldnt efficively defend it and it would offer us nothing anyway. No Babylonian troops or ships seen. Thats good.

Turn 1 - Indus: FORBIDDEN PALACE!!!!! --> War elephant. Income jumps to +13gpt, research is unaffected. Also notice Ashur is now Aztec... The aztecs are at war with babylon. Can we get to Babylon before the Aztecs (who no doubt have knights). And if so can we hold it? This will be difficult but I'm feeling brave, courageous, lucky and stupid. Gamble practically our whole army on the new continent on getting Babylon.

IBT - Ellipi flips to the Aztecs, dw though, I moved EVERY unit out of hte city the previous turn and so we don't even lose the bab workers. We do lose 2 turns of production from it though. Fortunately our galley made it!

Turn 2 - Unload WE and pike next to Ellipi, our main stack moves within 2 turns of a an attack on Babylon. Push science up 10%, losing 34gpt but get engineering next turn. Loading dudes into galleys... decide to hold off on sending just yet as Lighthouse can be ours in 2, willing to risk the strike for the chance to have unfetted access to reinforcements.

IBT - Persian Knight attacks our stack but our pike retreats him (1-0) Galley's don't sink thats two turns in a row that risk has paid off! Engineering comes in set to Invention in 8 turns at +6gpt.

Turn 3 - Bombay: War Elephant--> War Elephant, New Kollhapur: Harbor--> War Elephant. Resistance ends in Ur. Attack Elippi with War Elephant and kill the defending spear without being scratched and retake the city. (2-0)
The victory nets us a GOLDEN AGE

Invention in 5 at +73gpt or in 4 at +21gpt, we need techs so I opt for the 2nd 1. Send War elephant to Ur and fortify pike in Elippi. Our stack can now attack Babylon next turn, then we will have plenty reinforcements (fingers crossed). We are still top in score out of civs we know, we ain't doin' that bad ladz! Feeling confident. Keep loading guys into galleys, worker moves. Things will happen next turn. Next turn, we get the Great Lighthouse, I just know it!

IBT - Aztec Knight moves next to Babylon... we will get it first! Holding off the Aztecs will then be the tricky part.

Turn 4 - Banglore: War Elephant --> War Elephant, Calcutta: War Elephant --> War Elephant. Bengal: Galley --> Galley, Pune; galley --> Galley, New Delhi: Galley --> galley, New Lahore 2x: Cat --> Cat, New Karachi: harbor --> Courthouse. At babylon, (akkad has been captured this is the last bab city.
First sword wins (3/4 & 3-0)
Second sword wins (2/4 & 4-0)
Reveals a redlined spear.
Third sword wins (3/4 & 5-0)

And we take Babylon!!!!

We are now down to 4 opponents, and them aztecs are looking dangerous. However we can now get reinforcements where they are needed. Took a gamble on not using cats and it worked, so use the cats to weakaen that knight next to Babylon. Start moving galleys toward the new continent, we have 5 War Elephants, 1 pike, and 3 cats already loaded and headed to support the new continent.

Babylon set to walls.

IBT - Bucketloads of Aztecs rock up round Babylon... sword attacks and retreats WE, another sword attacks and loses to our 3/4 sword and promotes him. (6-0) an Aztec knight finishes our WE (6-1).

Turn 5 - Lots of WE finish, several places finish harbors, all are set to galleys. One of the best catapult barrages I've done, EVERY shot takes a hp off the aztecs around Babylon, however if we survive this interturn... I know its an expense that may prove futile but I rush build walls there (72 gold). Land all our reinforcements right next to Babylon (1 movement point short of getting them IN babylon, it will have to last without them for 1 turn). Still the aztec attackers look very strong, move our sword into Babylon and fortify, fortify all the defendign swords and the pike. Need to bump off some more Aztec troops so our elite sword attacks a 3hp knight and wins (7-1) without taking damage, no GL though. Take a breath and prepare to lose guys. Hit enter.

IBT - A knight yellowlined by cats attacks our elite sword (who is in the open) and takes 1 hit and retreats withotu causing damage! A sword then attacks Babylon and loses! (8-1) the other swords, who had only lost 1hp each then run away! BIG mistake Aztecs! A chinese Pike/sword pair shows up in the cultural land of Babylon. A 3/4 aztec sword captures our 2 bab workers

Turn 6 - Babylon: Walls --> settler, Lyons: barracks --> War elephant, Jaipur and Madras: War Elephant --> War Elephant, Chittagong: Library --> market. New Jaipur: Harbor --> galley. Invention in 1, drop science enought to get +100gpt and still have it in 1. Catapults at babylon redline everything. Elite sword attacks pike/sword pair and wins without taking damage, no leader (8-1). War Elephants used to take out non-stacked units so that they can retreat to safety (11-1). babylon looking safe and with walls just about unconquerable. How to move on from their now? Elite horse in Ur kills 3/4 aztec sword (12-1) without taking damage, but no leader.

IBT - Persian horse attacks Babylon but loses to pike (3/4 & 13-1). A big stack of immortals lands next to babylon, chinese horse shows up as well.

Turn 7 - Invention comes in, set to gunpowder in 4 turns at +5gpt. Lahore: duct --> war elephant (Note: leo's is still up for grabs so we are now nearing the AI bloc in terms of tech, Great Library may not be as important as I believed, don't get too hopeful though). Dacca: rax --> war elephant, Pune: galley --> galley, Bombay, new calcutta: war elephant --> war elephant. Troop builds drop our gpt to exactly 0 but I MM to get 1gpt (yes i am a miser ). The vaunted catapults barely scratch the immortal stack. Most are reg though with only 1 vet so thats good. Land reinforcements. Still heaps more waiting, haven't sent any settlers yet as we've needed troops there. After droping some WE at elippi I send the galley into aztec territory. Its goal? To find tenotchitlan. We have our two short term goals done. Mid term goals I will now look at, finding the Great Library will be the next goal i intend to tick off. Our elite sword attacks the top immortal on the stack (a 3/4 vet on a hill) and wins but is redlined (14-1). Use WE to kill the horses (16-1). Finish the immortal stack, use a WE to finish it so it can retreat back to babylon (19-1).

Wow I haven't ever had a kill ratio this good, let alone when I was worried babylon was a goner just a few turns ago!.

IBT - A horse attacks babylon and predictably dies (20-1) a bunch of Aztec and chinese swords rock up, two elites the rest regs. Troops coming slowly now, looking strong there. Further reinforcements will be used to advance our position as atm we need the troops in Babylon to clear out what arrives each turn.

Turn 8 - Calcutta, Swordy Mountain, Ganges and Banglore: War Elephant --> War Elephant. Pune and New Delhi: galley --> galley, New Lahore x2: cat --> cat. We are runnign a -3gpt deficit after troop builds. Clear out the guys around Babylon. (26-1). Worker moves, move some more WE into babylon. We are developing quite a force their. A few more boatloads and we can go on the offensive, also have 2 settlers on the way.

IBT - A chinese rider attacks Babylon and dies but redlines our only elite WE. A stack of 6 swords and 2 muskets land next to Babylon (from the chinese).

Turn 9 - Delhi and New Kollhapur: WE --> WE... a galley sinks... wait a minute? Oh bugger! The only ocean tile it could be on and i fat fingered a move onto it! We lose 2 WE because of it. Sorry fellas. Wipe out the chinese stack next to Babylon, and a loose sword nearby without losses. (35-1). Worker moves, move troops toward the loading point, galley moves. We are solid. I wouldn't say we are ready to go on the offensive yet but we are very strong defencively. Nothing else for me to do but hit enter, noone in sight.

IBT - I had misjudged the moves for the WE last turn and 1 was left stranded on a hill so I covered him with a pike and fortified. Attacked by, an elite persian knight, an elite aztec knight and a vet aztec knight and redline all 3 (causing them to retreat) and the pike is still 3/4. Several new enemies arrive at babylon.

Turn 10 - Punjab: duct --> market, Hyderbad & Indus: Market --> library Jaipur: WE --> WE, Pune: galley --> galley. Drop science 10% and still have gunpowder next turn, +58gpt. Clear the enemies around Babylon (39-1) and this happens

Hurray!! Now what to do with him? Will get to that in a second. Galley moves, worker moves, troop moves... yadda yadda nothing of relevance.

Our exploring galley finds Teoutihuacan which almost guarantees Tenotchitlan is near there.

Ok really thats all thats important left in that turn.

Post-flight assesment:
Goals Achieved:
- Captured babylon
- Got more troops to our new continent
- Possibly get palace (?? up to team I would actually prefer a WE army)
- Got a pretty good idea of where the Great Library is.

Boys we got ourselves a leader! Now what do we do? Babylon is in no danger whatsoever of flipping and it isnt exactly optimal for a palace. A War Elephant Army? It would guarantee the protection of Babylon although it would open Ur to attack if it remained in Babylon, OTOH it could be pivotal in our offensive manouvers and also I would like the Heroic Epic asap to help in the generation of leaders, our record so far is abysmal, or if we really wanted to we could rush Leo's.
We now have a (very rough) idea of where Tenotchitlan is, are we capable of charging for it? Do we need to (our GA is helping us pull within touching distance, although I'd avoid Education if possible just in case we want to leave that option open.
Militarily we are strong, our GA economy is as good as its been all game, what it will be like after it finishes is another matter, I've tried to build a bit of Infra in the cities around Indus but the next player needs to make that a priority.

My kill ratio really suprised me (39-1) Catapults rock! Although if u count the galley n 2 WE lost to dangerous waters its 39-4 which is four times worse

before you pick up the game Lboogie13 I want a team discussion (and maybe some advice from any experienced AW players lurking) abotu what to do with this leader. Last time we had no FP city, no sensible army to make and so the only option was the Pyramids. This time we have 3 options so I want a consensus on what we should do.

I'm a LOT happier about handing the save onto the next player this time then last. We still have 11 turns of GA so lets make the most of it.

 

[markh]

Great work Mr. T.
I felt so bad losing so many of our ships and leaving you with a quite small force in Babylon in combination with my strategic mistake not to go for Babylon straight away.

I would go for an army -> heroic epic. Maybe it is better to build a sword army as we would waste two phants. In my opinion they are too precious at the moment.
Leo's in our current position will not be that effective. We need all our gold for research, so upgrades are not an issue for long. Especially when our GA ends we will need our cash for research.
As we have the FP now and the babs are exterminated I would not rush the palace in Babylon. I would not like Babylon as the center for our second core. Maybe later when we have the chance to establish an optimal second core there.

 

[tupaclives]

Don't feel bad at all Markh you left me with enough to do the job Markh. I took a big risk to do it though, I emptied Elippi and had just an elite horse in Ur, had the force (about 6 swords if i recall and 7 or 8 cats, oh yes and 1 Pike) not been as lucky as they were (fending off a knight along the way, no losses taking Babylon and then the amazing cat barrage to protect the city before reinforcements had arrived) it would have been a very different story. As it is what you left me with was plenty good enough. My concern with a sword army is that the majority of our offence from now on is going to be carried out by War Elephants rather than swords and a sword army would be isolated from the rest unless we slowed the whole advance. In vanilla armies don't get the +1 movement.
The advantage of a WE army is that as well as having our strongest attackers it would be the best DEFENSIVE army we can produce as well.

I agree about Babylon not being optimal, my thinking behind it was that it would allow us to instantly have a productive cities on the new continent and we could then rush the palace in a good spot as it became available. However I think that would work better if back up by an army (preferably a WE army IMO).

 

[markh]

Right, I keep mixing up the army features from Vanilla to Conquests.
So, a phant army it should be if we decide on an army.

I think we can reinforce quite well now with the Great Lighthouse, so we could wait with the palace on that side of the world. It would give us just 3 productive cities whereas we have two productive rings on our continent to reinforce. At the moment it might be difficult to set up a defensible core in the middle of the Aztecs and Persians, but maybe I am worng again and it will be much easier than I think.

 

[tupaclives]

We can easily spare the elephants for an army, IIRC we have around 30 elephants atm. We also have 13 galleys i believe, 1 is on scouting duty so that means that at best we can transport up to 24 units to Babylon every 6 turns. As for establish new cores, I have no idea how difficult it will be as I've never played an AW. Not even a practice one so this whole thing is new to me. You're right about the 3 cities of course. My vote at present goes for a WE army using 'Yes!!!' and 2 vet elephants in the army, then get a victory with it when the next batch of invaders arive at babylon and build the Heroic Epic in Delhi.

Once thats done and we have a maybe another 2 cities in our new land (looking for either CxxC or even ICS spacing and also making full use of hills for defence bonus) then we can look at picking a target to go after next. We also will need to make sure all new cities get walls. next player should switch Ur from WE to walls and rush them as once we have an army in Babylon the attackers will go for Ur. If we get a musket there though it will be extremely defencible.
Defence 4
+25% Fortified bonus
+50% Town Walls
+50% Hill

means any muskets would be defending at 9. Pikes would be at 6.75.

Thats all assuming my calculations are correct. I've also got 3 cats in Ur atm for any stray attackers heading that way. If it becomes the target of choice once theres an army in Babylon then pehaps all new catapult arrivals should be dropped off in Ur.

I don't know if any of that made sense, its late and I've had hardly any sleep for days

Goodnight to all!

 

[markh]

And Roster Update :

Tupaclives - just played
Lboogie13 - UP
McLman - on deck
markh

 

[Lboogie13]

Wow that was an exciting bunch of turns. For what my inexpierenced opinion is worth, I agree with a WE army. With their movement per turn rate they could be used to leave the city to attack and return in a pinch. I like to think of them as the first tank! Does Babylon have rax? If so it makes a WE army defending there almost invincible for now.

Any ideas where to put new cities? Are we going for a ring on our "new world?" Well I'll try not to screw up the great progress you gents have made. I've made some rookie mistakes but all in all I think I've done well. I know that I am learning a lot this game.

Consider this a got it. I will play tonight after work.

 

[vmxa]

Just one comment about Leo's. You may want to factor in the effect of them having Leo and in a spot that you will not be reaching for a long time.

It could be a close call to weigh an Army/FP Vs Leo. Leo aids you if you have it and hurts you if they have it. Even though you will not be making mass upgrades right away, you may find that being able to get 1 or 2 upgrades at half price is a very useful tool.

In the end you will have more leaders, but may not have another shot at the wonder. Just another consideration, not an absolute vote.

 

[tupaclives]

@Vmxa: Very true about it benefitting them, my concern however is that we are at 1050AD in an AW game and still lack the Heroic Epic.
@Lboogie13: As for city placement, I think atm we need defencible positions over rings. Make sure that slow movers (cats, muskets etc.) will be able to move between cities in 1 turn. Also look to build on hills if possible. Don't get too enthusiastic about founding just yet as new cities will need to be garrisoned immediately.

 

[vmxa]

I do build the HE and usually as soon as I can do so, but I am not convinced it is a great bargain. In an AW game you are going to get your leaders, it is just that they seem to not come at the most opportune time. I don't know as the HE does much about that.

Either way is you go, you are not wrong. It is just a close call. My position is that I have never been able to prove that the HE did much for me, but I have saved my butt a few time with Leo's.

I have more than once had less than the gold amount to upgrade without Leo and would have been stuck with a seriously damaged unit. I had Leos and hence had enough gold to upgrade that unit and boom now I have a better unit at FULL HEALTH.

You don't need a lot of case where you are able to upgrade for half price to make an impact. I just am not sure how to tell if the HE did as much or not.

It is not like I won't be getting an HE at some point anyway. As I said, you are not wrong either way, I just want to toss in another factor to comtemplate before you choose. Weither it will sway your or not and weither it would be better or not I cannot say.

Just want to be sure you thought of it.

 

[Ansar]

Make sure that slow movers (cats, muskets etc.) will be able to move between cities in 1 turn.[/B]

lurker's comment: If you dont care if the cities grow, ICS(CxC) is better because you can go from city to city in one turn AND fortify.

 

[Lboogie13]

Am I missing something or is there no save posted? Or are we waiting to decide what to do with the leader?

 

[tupaclives]

Well I was hoping for discussion on the leader before the save was played, but I actually just forgot to put up the save

 

[McLMan]

I'm glad it hasn't been played yet. I'd like to come forward with an 11th hour voice of dissent.

I saw the posts during the day and had some suspicions, but didn't have a chance to look into it until just now. This is going to sound like it's coming out of left field, but I think we need to use the leader to build the Palace in Ur. Guessing where the Aztec land most likely is, I think it's centrally located. This is Vanilla, so we won't lose that much by moving the Palace which is too close to the FP on our continent. We'll be at least even very soon after we secure some more land in the former Babylon territory. I played with CAII a little bit.

Here's the way things look now. (Golden Age)

And here's how it would look with Ur as the Capital right now.

Notice how the difference in gpt and beakers is only 8 less. And that's with a size 1 Capital and only 2 1st ring cities. And if you look in the middle part of the window you can see that Delhi is only losing 4 shields per turn. The loss on the main continent isn't that bad.

And if you're thinking that the GA is skewing things, here's how it would look if we weren't in one.
Currently with the Capital in Delhi:

And with the Capital in Ur:

The differences are far less without the GA (beakers & shields, gpt is the same). By the time the GA is over we'd surely have some more towns founded around Ur, and end up in better shape coming out of the GA. The main reasons for picking Ur is it's better location for placing cities around it, and the fact that it's not a wonder city, we could take advantage of a Free Palace jump later by abandoning it. We'd just need to build nothing more than walls and maybe a Rax. Because the shield loss isn't too great in our mainland, we'd still be able to ferry reinforcements, AND have productive cities right on the front line.

Or, we could go with an Army, and keep this strat in our pocket for the next one. It's just a matter of how soon we'd get another.

 

[tupaclives]

Great timing McLman! Great work with the mapstat screenies and i think thats something we need to take into serious consideration. We have a few elites atm and the odds are we will get another leader and could do it then, but at the same time we could build the army later as we seem to be coping alrite without it for now. Also vmxa's suggestions on leo's, and the fact we mightn't get another chance at it throws it up in the air as well. We'll have a vote.

1 vote each.

I vote War Elephant Army, my reasons: we don't yet have the extra cities on the new continent to make a palace there worthwhile. The difference in production, gpt and beakers on our main continent would be small but it would be a negative. It would be better long term I feel but greater income and production (when new core established and palace in final position) later is no reason to change the palace NOW.

War Elephant army: 1 vote
Leonardo's Workshop: 0 votes
Palace in Ur: 0 votes
Palace in Babylon: 0 votes.
Other: 0 votes.

 

[markh]

Tough dicision.

I vote for Leo's. We will have the chance only this time. An army we can build with any leader we get. Leo's might be gone then.

Nice work McLMan. I think we should rush the palace as soon as we have 3 or 4 more cities there and a leader of course.

 

[McLMan]

I've just spent about 30 minutes looking at the save in-game and in CAII. It is really a tough decision. I have to start by eliminating my least favorite, Palace in Babylon just won't work because it would eliminate the possibility of the free Palace jump, and I'm just not a fan of vanilla Armies.

Leo's is being built by the Aztecs, Chinese, and the Greeks. Upgrade cost from WE to Cav is 20g. What could hurt is Cats to Cannon at 40g but we are roughly 50 turns away if we bee-line for Metallurgy. Other than that, we won't be doing much upgrading in this game. I think we can finish this game with Cav. I feel confident that we could get it from the Aztecs or Chinese by the time it would be really useful to us, but I'm not sure about the Greeks. Any idea where exactly they are?

My vote goes to ... Palace in Ur. In addition to the arguments in my last post, it will minimize flip risks of not only captured, but native Indian cities as well. The quicker we can get a productive core on this continent, the quicker we can get through this continent.

Well Lboogie13, that gives you the swing vote! From where I sit there's really no bad decision (except maybe Palace in Babylon). We will most likely have the trifecta at some point anyhow. This certainly won't be our last GL.

 

[tupaclives]

WE Army - 1 vote
Leo's - 1 Vote
Palace in Ur - 1 vote


OK Lboogie you get the final decision. Have you picked up the save?

 

[Lboogie13]

Yes I have picked up the save. Sorry for the slow response. I will play in a few hours (gotta go to cathedral in the real world!) I've read everyone's posts. This is really a tough decision. After thinking about it and playing a lot of vanilla, I think we should stay away from the army. I vote for rushing Leo's. At first I thought we should go with a WE army. But the more I think about it, the more I realize armies have never done much for me in Vanilla.

I think it is too early for a new palace location. We are not exactly rich in gold right now to mass upgrade units and may never be. I've never played AW before. Half-price upgrades may be that extra edge we need. Plus with AW we have a great shot of getting another GL if we make a wrong decision.

Well I don't like being the deciding vote but there it is.

One last question, which city to put it in?