Turn 1-50

So, based on the newly appearing lion, we now know we have a lion in the northwest and one somewhere in the west of Indira. I'd say the only realistic move next turn would be 1 based on this information, or even back towards the capital if we are very afraid of losing the warrior. However, we need to risk him if we wish to have any chance of contacting another team asap.
 
Good move with the warrior.

It looks like we'll need some luck to slip past these lions without a battle. I think we're going to have to depend on the best judgement of the turnplayer again next turn, because the best move will only be clear once we see how those lions move. The big thing to watch out for is avoiding getting attacked by both lions at once.
 
Well it looks like the lions are going to be unavoidable if we want to continue in the nw direction. I suggest moving onto the grass plain hill next (if it is open). If we get attacked by the southern lion we stand a good chance of winning. And if need be we could limp back to our culture to heal.
 
Yeah, excellent judgement to avoid that lion. 1 next to get on the hill for sight and protection, and then we just need to dance around the animals.
 
Another option would have been to go around the lake. But of course moving 4 and next 1 is a good option too.
 
Logged in to take a quick look. We've grown to pop 2 :)

The southern lion has moved back onto the hill that he was on turn 16. I recommend moving our warrior 1 onto the grass hill and then taking the hit from the lion. We should survive with the 25% defense bonus. If we go 4 we might escape being attacked for another turn but could end up tag teamed by 2 lions after that.

For Lord Parkin: after farming the bananas he should road the corn. I've test gamed this one extensively and its the best next move. Once we are done with the road we can move onto the grass hill mine location without losing a worker turn. So we can put one turn of mining onto that hill-> then mine the plains hills-> then finish the grass hill mine-> then cottage the first flood plain.
 
I will play the turn later today. :) It would be interesting to see if the demos change meanwhile.

Sent from my HTC One X using Tapatalk 2
 
cav scout said:
Logged in to take a quick look. We've grown to pop 2 :)

The southern lion has moved back onto the hill that he was on turn 16. I recommend moving our warrior 1 onto the grass hill and then taking the hit from the lion. We should survive with the 25% defense bonus. If we go 4 we might escape being attacked for another turn but could end up tag teamed by 2 lions after that.

For Lord Parkin: after farming the bananas he should road the corn. I've test gamed this one extensively and its the best next move. Once we are done with the road we can move onto the grass hill mine location without losing a worker turn. So we can put one turn of mining onto that hill-> then mine the plains hills-> then finish the grass hill mine-> then cottage the first flood plain.
Click to expand...

I think our micro plans depend a bit on where we think we are going to put our 2nd city. If we are putting the 2nd city 3S1E of the capital so that both the cows and wheat are adjacent to the city then I think we want to mine the plains hill and skip the grass hill mine.

The plains hill would be shared between both cities and could be used by the 2nd city after we cottage the capital. The grass hill mine will not be used much at all in the 20-30 turn window after we finish cottaging the floodplains around the capital.

I think we want to skip one of the mines and get cottages up as quickly as possible.

If our goal is cottages asap and a trade route to the 2nd city then I don't see any reason to deviate from the plan I posted a while back.
in the spoiler
Spoiler :
1. farm corn
2. farm banana
3. mine plains hill
4. move to corn and road
5. road riverside grassland SW of corn (so we have a trade route to the 2nd city where I think we should put it 3S1E)
6. start cottage 1N of Indira

With this plan you have 1 turn of being unhealthy in Delhi while you start the road however at pop 5 you can immediately use the plains hill mine for the settler build at pop 5.
You are finished with the cottage right when you want the worker to follow the settler down to start on the wheat. (or the worker can stay and build more cottages)
You start working the cottage significantly earlier in this plan at the expense of working the grass hill mine. This puts slightly fewer hammers/food into the settler build but it gets more commerce earlier. Since we sacrificed so much for the FP and early cottages I have to assume people want to start working cottages asap.

(also we won't be using the grass hill mine once we have 4 cottages in Indira for quite some time, so the grass hill mine probably is lower priority)
the plains hill mine will be shared by the cows/wheat city no matter where we put it. If we do decide to put next to the river than the grass hill mine is shared and is slightly better than the plains hill mine imo.


We might lose a worker turn moving to the plains mine, but that allows us to get the mine in and the critical roads for the 2nd city and corn connection just in time for the worker to run back and start a cottage the same turn we finish pottery.
 
As far as the warrior move, I'm really conflicted. I guess we might as well get on the hill and take the fight at good odds, but if we lose our exploration plans are ruined for quite some time...

Right now the spreadsheet is showing cav scout's worker plan:

Spoiler :
Untitled.png


When I simmed it, if I didn't hook up the Corn before growing into unhealthiness, the Settler was delayed by one turn. I hadn't thought to switch which hill to mine like cav scout, but that shaves a turn off the first cottage, so I revised the Micro spreadsheet with this. We start our first cottage the turn after Pottery finishes, so we're not delaying the cottage at all.

Of course, this does mean that we have to settle on the river or not have our first city connected for awhile. I think we're fine to settle on the river and wait till Indira pops border again on T50 to get the cow into play.
 
Re: micro and 2nd city placement

Settling the 2nd city 3S1E seems to offer better tiles, at least 3 more hills and access to the plains hill we suspect has copper. And eventually 2 more forests.

And you're wrong the cows will not be in our culture on T50. The cows are outside Indira's 2nd border expansion.

I think it is worth the additional road we would have to build to get the trade routes and the earlier access to the cows. (also it doesn't hurt to have our cities connected by roads for defense purposes). I know we aren't researching animal handling in the short term but we would likely research it soon, much earlier than we could get culture border expansion in our 2nd city.

If you mine the plains hill, road the corn, road next to the plains hill and then move back you start the cottage the turn after pottery finishes. You only have 1 turn that the capital is unhealthy, so you only lose 1 food/hammer on the settler. Yes not having the 2nd mine does delay the settler one turn, but skipping the 2nd mine accelerates at the very least the 1st cottage and then accelerates either the 2nd cottage or the wheat farm. I think delaying the settler one turn is worth an earlier cottage and and earlier wheat farm. It just works better with the worker. Also skipping 2nd mine allows trade routes to the (imo) clearly superior 2nd city location next to the cows.

Plus that 2nd mine will not be used for some time after the cottages are built for the capital. It will be at or below 5 pop for quite some time. So the mine might offer an additional 15-20 additional food/hammers for settler and worker production, but we lose at least 3 turns of development on all of the cottages for the capital and are somewhat forced to settle in the inferior 2nd city location. And we lose 3 turns on the wheat farm too perhaps. It becomes a bit murky since it depends on how we use the 1st and 2nd worker after the 1st cottage in the capital.

We will want the cows in the 2nd city, so the inferior city placement likely means we will build a monument there that we wouldn't otherwise. That alone might make up for the loss of 15-20 hammers from the 2nd mine for the capital.
 
no one considered 1SW from gold as city 2? gets pigs, gold and 2 fp's first ring, blocks some land, brings hapiness and good commerce.

we have already myst so border pop while issue is not that problematic with 4 good tiles in 1st ring.
 
The problem its that we dont have AH, and with actula plan will take a while util we get that and second its that the city its to far away and will get an income for empire to late an dneeds to many turns to be roaded.
 
cav scout said:
The southern lion has moved back onto the hill that he was on turn 16. I recommend moving our warrior 1 onto the grass hill and then taking the hit from the lion. We should survive with the 25% defense bonus. If we go 4 we might escape being attacked for another turn but could end up tag teamed by 2 lions after that.
Click to expand...
Animals have 10% penalty on Emperor, right? If so, we should be OK on hill, but it is not a sure thing. Chances are our warrior will be rather beaten up after this confrontation anyway and we'll need to heal.

Also, I don't quite see how the lions could surround us if we move to west. We can always move to the other side of the mountain than the northern lion does in the worst case scenario. With luck we can slip past the both lions.

Safest bet would of course still be going around the lake the other way. This takes of course a bit longer than a succesful sneak by would take.

From these options, I don't really like moving to the grass hill at all. We quite likely lose some speed since we'd need to heal the warrior. In the worst case we'd end up losing the warrior anyway. So in short, I suggest either taking a risk and trying to slip by the lions, or playing it safe and moving back to the forest and continuing the journey around the lake.
 
Aivoturso said:
Animals have 10% penalty on Emperor, right? If so, we should be OK on hill, but it is not a sure thing. Chances are our warrior will be rather beaten up after this confrontation anyway and we'll need to heal.

Also, I don't quite see how the lions could surround us if we move to west. We can always move to the other side of the mountain than the northern lion does in the worst case scenario. With luck we can slip past the both lions.

Safest bet would of course still be going around the lake the other way. This takes of course a bit longer than a succesful sneak by would take.

From these options, I don't really like moving to the grass hill at all. We quite likely lose some speed since we'd need to heal the warrior. In the worst case we'd end up losing the warrior anyway. So in short, I suggest either taking a risk and trying to slip by the lions, or playing it safe and moving back to the forest and continuing the journey around the lake.
Click to expand...

Emperor Difficulty:

Base "bonuses":
+2 health
+4 happy
3 free units
–1 AI attitude
AI starts with: 2 Archers,
2 Scouts, and 1 Settler

Modifiers:
research ×1.20
unit cost ×0.80
distance maint. ×0.95
civic upkeep ×1.00
inflation ×1.00
AI costs ×0.85

Other modifiers:
90% animal attack probability
animal strength: –10%
barbarians in 20 turns•••
barb. city creation prob.: 70%
 
So with all the modifiers what are the combat odds if we get attacked by the lion on the grass hill? If it's 80% or over I think it makes sense to take the hit and then heal for a couple turns. We are going to want to remove the animals from the area at some point anyways.
-----------------

Our 2nd city should be 3S of Indira on the river. We can found this city faster with the road in place on the corn (settler moves there first turn, founds on the next). Plus we get the commerce bonus from the river. Plus we get to share the grass hill with Indira. This 3S location passes on the cow initially but we don't really need them right away as we will have an abundance of food and good production from two mines. I'm envisioning the cows will be worked primarilly by another city to the east anyways once we start filling up our land.

The 3S city location will have excellent synergy with Indira tiles and will grow to happy cap 4 quickly by working the corn initially. We will then stabilize and churn out warriors/units with a production focus. The tiles work great for a whip cycle at happy cap with really strong production at pop 3 (wheat, grass mine, plains mine) and a whip (axe or building) every 10 turns at pop 4. The cows would actually be redundant for quite a while until we can get our happy cap up.

We want to get the 2nd city up asap so we can get the units needed to protect our rex. The 3rd city can follow quickly and should definitely claim the gold. The main reason I wanted our first warrior to circle around was to finish the loop and garrison city 2. This would allow the 3rd warrior to move to the gold city site to clear the route and protect the settler move there. This would be the optimum rex move but we delay emissary warriors a bit. I understand how you guys want to make contact with neighbors right away but I still think rexing is the first priority until we get the gold city claimed.
 
The city 3S1E will be just as good as the city 3S in the short run and will be much stronger in the long run.

It shares the plains hill and corn with the capital (and likely the copper on the plains hill).
Yes it requires an additional road and will be settled a turn later than the 3S city but that small sacrifice in worker turns will eventually be more than made up for. It will get access to the cows much earlier in addition to likely sharing the copper with the capital. It has more forests in its eventual BFC and it has 3 more hills in its BFC.

Basically do we delay settling it one turn to get access to another 6 production tile in the cows earlier and possibly another in the copper?

The 3S1E can churn out units with the wheat, river plains hill and the suspected copper plains hill in the short run, then it can become a production powerhouse with wheat, cows, 3 grasshill mines and the suspected copper hill.

The city 3S has more river tiles but they look like tundra to me. I would much rather have forested grass hills than river tundra tiles.
 
Wow, lots of discussion for a warrior / worker move. I love it!

Agreed that northern gold will make a strong city site, but as others stated, it has to wait till city #3 because the wheat location makes for a very quick and strong city #2.

Seeing all these score increases and warrior builds has me nervous that we are getting a slower start than most teams, so I still favor cav scout’s micro plan. Delaying our settler from T34 to T35 just doesn’t seem worth it to me (it kills me having 98/100 production into the Settler on T34). I agree that the spot next to the Cows is marginally better for our second city, but settling on the river also gives some advantages (health bonus, shared grass hill mine). Or, we could still settle next to Cows and just not have the two cities connected until we can get a worker down there to build a road. However, I readily admit that bcool’s micro skills are much better than mine, so take what I say with a grain of salt. I have added his micro plan below cav scout’s on the spreadsheet. If we do end up going with bcool’s micro, why not road the Corn before working on the PH Mine? This would prevent us from becoming unhealthy, and we won't work the mine until we start on the Settler, anyways.

By the way, bcool, cav scout, bistrita, and any other micro experts out there, please take a look at the micro plan and give yourselves access to edit it. I can keep it updated with the plans you give us, but I find it helpful to work through different options on the spreadsheet to consider the timing of different options.
 
I improved the micro slightly if we do go with settling 3S1E of Indira for the 2nd city.

After farming bananas.
Move worker 2S1W to grass river tile and road for 1 turn.
Move worker to plains hill mine and build the mine
Move worker to corn and road for 2 turns
Move worker back to grass river tile and finish road
Move worker to plains NE of Indira and road for 1 turn
Move worker to Floodplains 1N of Indira and cottage

This gives us 1 turn of unhealthiness in Indira. Finishing the road to the corn first means we don't have the mine for 2 turns at pop 5. Finishing the road after the mine means we only have 1 turn of unhealthiness.

The small improvement in the above plan just gets us 1 turn of road building that would otherwise be wasted by moving directly to the plains hill mine. The partial road NE of Indira would eventually be needed for the gold/pigs city. The partial road is making time for pottery to finish.
 
Okay, I looked at the spreadsheet in more detail. I like cav scout's micro better now that I looked it more closely. I see 3 options

Option 1 settle 3S use spreadsheet micro from cav scout
Option 2 settle 3S1E use spreadsheet micro from cav scout
Option 3 settle 3S1E use spreadsheet micro from bcool

I like either option 2 or option 3 because I think settling 3S1E is significantly better than settling 3S.

Option 1 means we will have trade routes and we get the capital cottage 1 turn later (compared to option 3) and the wheat farm 2 turns later (compared to option 3) and do not have the cows in the initial city radius and do not have the suspected copper in the city BFC we lose 2 forests and 3 hills. We do have 2 fresh water health, however with wheat corn and cows and pigs soon enough health won't be problem for this production city.


Option 2 means we will not have trade routes for a minimum of 4 turns or a cost of 8 :commerce: and we get the capital cottage 1 turn later (costs ~2 :commerce: ) and the wheat farm 2 turns (costs 6 :food: ) later (but the 2nd worker is produced a turn earlier)


Option 3 means we will settle a turn later and not have the grass hill mine. Settling a turn later and not having the grass hill mine costs us about 2 :food: 17? :hammers: 2 :commerce:


So option 3 maximizes commerce at the cost of some early hammers (delays the settler 1 turn and the 2nd worker 1 turn)

option 2 maximizes expansion with a better long term 2nd city at the cost of about 10 :commerce:

option 1 maximizes expansion and commerce but with a worse 2nd city.

Is 10 early commerce worth having cows earlier, 2 forests and 3 more hills in the 2nd city?

Or if you prefer value early commerce a lot, is having cows earlier, 2 forests and 3 more hills in the 2nd city worth 2 :food: 17 :hammers: 2 :commerce: ?

Right now I like option 2. I'm willing to sacrifice 10 early commerce for the better 2nd city location.
 
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