Turn Discussion Thread

[plako]

Yeah, I can't work it out either. Are bonus multipliers factored into the hammer calculation? (For instance, if an Imperialistic civ builds a Settler, does their hammer count go up in the demographics screen?)

I made some tests and it seemed like in all cases the hammers seemed to be "real" hammers. I tested with Joao and built Worker, settler and Stonehenge using stone. From the demographics it seems that there aren't anyone with more than 1 city (max population is about the same as ours). I've BUG installed. Hopefully it doesn't affect to these numbers.

My guess is that the capital has at least bronze and corn and it would be founded in the plains hill. This itself gives ~8 food and ~8 hammers. Then there could be 3*mined grassland hills and 1 plains hill => 11 Food and 21 Hammers. So 20 hammers is very much possible scenario. Even with just 2 resources and if there are horses or cows this would be even easier.

 

[DMOC]

So it seems like, instead of having an enemy capital with 6 gems, we now have an enemy capital with 6 plains cows!

Well, that's a bit of an exaggeration. It seems likely, though, that whichever team has the 20 hammers is probably building some settlers, so to maximize production. Food when producing settlers isn't counted in MFG (is this right?) so they must have just 1 food source and are working a lot of mines to churn out their settlers.

Anyway, found the horse city first. As Lord Parkin said, immortals are more valuable than axemen at this point in the game, mainly thanks to their 2-move and bonus versus archers which we will no doubt encounter.

The floodplains city should be founded third in between the horse and capital cities, and then the copper/silver city should probably go next once we have sufficiently explored the area. That city could serve as a much-needed production city.

Switch to Polytheism. I'm not sure about this, as this delays the Oracle by a turn and the team that researches Meditation first could be heading for the Oracle as well. Any other opinions? I understand the value of Polytheism, though. It's hard to decide...a religion, or Oracle 1 turn faster and possibly not get Buddhism....

 

[plako]

This turn Warrior to SW and Orion to SE. Worker starts to chop.

Next turn probably the same i.e. Warrior to SW and Orion to SE. Worker continues the chop.

 

[plako]

Switch to Polytheism. I'm not sure about this, as this delays the Oracle by a turn and the team that researches Meditation first could be heading for the Oracle as well. Any other opinions? I understand the value of Polytheism, though. It's hard to decide...a religion, or Oracle 1 turn faster and possibly not get Buddhism....

I haven't yet tested, but there is fair chance that Oracle is not nescessarily delayed even if Priesthood comes 1 turn later. In some of my tests I did delay Meditation to turn 55 (collected gold) and was still able to get Oracle and Writing ready at turn 61. However worker movements must be re-optimized and this probably means that hooking up horses will be delayed 1-2 turns.

 

[plako]

I haven't yet tested, but there is fair chance that Oracle is not nescessarily delayed even if Priesthood comes 1 turn later. In some of my tests I did delay Meditation to turn 55 (collected gold) and was still able to get Oracle and Writing ready at turn 61. However worker movements must be re-optimized and this probably means that hooking up horses will be delayed 1-2 turns.

Made a fast test and it seems that Oracle is almost certainly delayed to turn62 unless we chop all the forests and to do that we'll had to postpone horses more (maybe 4-5 turns). This makes the build order Worker-Settler-Worker questionable and it probably would be better to build Worker-Worker-Settler, if we want to try to get Oracle on turn 61 and research Polytheism.

 

[Lord Parkin]

After further consideration Horse city is a lot better. However I wouldn't call silver city useless, even with information currently available. Also flood plains city is also probably higher in priority than silver city so that we can its cottages worked. However this could be our 4th city so that we can increase the max population in our cities and possibly we've also Sailing researched so that Lighthouse could be built to raise the population fast before concentrating on working silver tiles.

Whoops, I got my east and west confused. You're right, 1NW of the Copper would be a decent site. (I was thinking of 1NE when I originally posted. )

The floodplains city should be founded third in between the horse and capital cities, and then the copper/silver city should probably go next once we have sufficiently explored the area. That city could serve as a much-needed production city.

Yep, sounds good.

Switch to Polytheism. I'm not sure about this, as this delays the Oracle by a turn and the team that researches Meditation first could be heading for the Oracle as well. Any other opinions? I understand the value of Polytheism, though. It's hard to decide...a religion, or Oracle 1 turn faster and possibly not get Buddhism....

Well, it may not even be an issue. The only case in which we'd want to research Polytheism would be if someone founded Buddhism in the next 3 turns. Heck, someone might found Hinduism instead, and then our choice would be even easier.

If we're already partway into research on Meditation and someone else founds Buddhism, it wouldn't be worth switching research to Polytheism. We'd only consider the switch if Buddhism is founded before we put research into Meditation.

Made a fast test and it seems that Oracle is almost certainly delayed to turn62 unless we chop all the forests and to do that we'll had to postpone horses more (maybe 4-5 turns). This makes the build order Worker-Settler-Worker questionable and it probably would be better to build Worker-Worker-Settler, if we want to try to get Oracle on turn 61 and research Polytheism.

I don't think we should delay our first Settler any further. I'm starting to worry about barbarians. If we get back luck and an Axeman turns up at the wrong time, we're toast. We need Immortals ASAP.

Anyway, regardless of whether an extra turn happens to make its way in there, I think we still have an excellent chance for the Oracle given current circumstances.

 

[Lord Parkin]

Worker starts to chop.

By the way, not sure if you've already done this, but I find it helps to do pre-chops one turn at a time - ie click chop, select the Worker again, and click cancel. That way, the Worker comes up for selection each turn, and we greatly reduce the chance of accidentally having a forest chopped at the wrong time (which would be just awful, given how much planning we've put into this so far).

 

[Joshua368]

By the way, I wouldn't mind saving a forest or two for later builds even if it means delaying the Oracle by a turn. Obviously we aren't exactly in a heated race for Priesthood, possibly because there are no other Organized civs to enjoy early cheap courthouses and no Industrious to enjoy early cheap forges.

 

[DMOC]

Well, it may not even be an issue. The only case in which we'd want to research Polytheism would be if someone founded Buddhism in the next 3 turns. Heck, someone might found Hinduism instead, and then our choice would be even easier.

Still, even if someone founds Buddhism within the next 3 turns, shouldn't we want to research Meditation instead of Polytheism since it lets us build the Oracle faster?

Oh, don't forget about worker movements. I think it's best in a competitive game like this (where every little thing counts) to make a worker do something, then cancel their move immediately afterwards and then, if necessary, the following turn we can continue the work or do something else.

Send the northern warrior SW and Orion SE.

 

[plako]

Good idea concerning workers. Let's cancel their moves so that they are "free" next turn to do whatever we like. Now worker is chopping, but from now on we should do this.

 

[DMOC]

I think there's some key control (ALT+SHIFT or something like that?) that can cause ALL available workers to cancel orders for the turn and reassign them. I think that might be useful in this game. I wouldn't do it in single player, but in this game....

 

[plako]

I made some tests and it seemed like in all cases the hammers seemed to be "real" hammers. I tested with Joao and built Worker, settler and Stonehenge using stone. From the demographics it seems that there aren't anyone with more than 1 city (max population is about the same as ours). I've BUG installed. Hopefully it doesn't affect to these numbers.

My guess is that the capital has at least bronze and corn and it would be founded in the plains hill. This itself gives ~8 food and ~8 hammers. Then there could be 3*mined grassland hills and 1 plains hill => 11 Food and 21 Hammers. So 20 hammers is very much possible scenario. Even with just 2 resources and if there are horses or cows this would be even easier.

Oh no, I made a mistake including 1 too many tiles in the calculation. There are all in all 6 possible tiles. One of these is city site and if we assume bronze and corn, we could get 8 hammers and 8 food. Now there is just 3 tiles left that has to provide 12 hammers + 3 Food. If there is also plains cow + 2*mined plains hills you would end up getting 11 hammers + 3 food. So this city might have 4 resorces around it. I really hope that BUG doesn't mess things up.

 

[DMOC]

Getting 8 hammers and 3 food in 3 tiels is a very likely possibility.

The city center probably has a plains hill (if we're sure this is Team Cavalieros we're talking about). Even worse, it could be on top of a plains hill with stone or marble (oyzar was always a fan of this and he's on their team...).

 

[Lord Parkin]

Orion heads SE. Other warrior heads SW.

Worker pre-chops forest, 1 turn remaining. I've cancelled him, we need to move him next turn.

In future, please make sure to cancel worker orders after you give them each turn. It'd be horrible to have a mistake where a worker auto-chopped a forest because we didn't keep a close enough eye on him.

Next turn: Orion SE? We need to uncover more tiles near the Horse resource, and heading SE is the quickest way (even if we spend a turn on flatland).

 

[plako]

I would send Orion to E and then SE. Same amount of tiles will be revealed as in the SE-E, but fogged tiles are behind the river.

 

[Lord Parkin]

I would send Orion to E and then SE. Same amount of tiles will be revealed as in the SE-E, but fogged tiles are behind the river.

Well, unless there's a hill or peak 2S, 1SW of Orion... in that case 1E-1SE would reveal an extra tile.

But I see where you're coming from - there's logic in keeping the fogged tiles behind the river.

 

[Joshua368]

E-SE is fine I guess. Certainly don't want to lose him at this point...

 

[Toch]

i vote E-SE seems to be more safe.

 

[Hercules90]

Yep E- SE seems safer, but we said that before. Thankfully he's more experienced.

 

[plako]

Our turn. Didn't move yet. Nothing suprising visible. However one thing needs to be discussed.

Lord Parkin: you've set a ingame note that we shouldn't chop the forest. The current plan suggested assumes that we chop 2 forests before Oracle and this would be one of those forests. Is this still ok? These 2 chops are needed to get last worker ready on turn 54.