Turn Discussion: Turns 1-19

[Norton I]

It would probably be nice to turn on the tile yield and resource indicator thingies for all screen shots anyway.

 

[Sommerswerd]

Yes Good point. I noticed that I had them off for the last screenshot so I turned on the resource indicators, but I forgot the tile yields... Or did I? I usually play with tile yields turned on so I cant imagine why they would be off. I will look at the screenshots again to doublecheck. Either way, I will try to keep them on from here on out.

Some other points...

1. Scout tells us about the island-map first Since we have Dora the Explorer, and we have been able to advance her 2 tiles each turn, whereas 4 of the other teams have lead-in-the-shoes warriors who can only move 1 tile at a time, it is very possible that it will be a few more turns (2 at least) before some teams realize they are on islands.
2. Snowy-trees tell us about the island-map first Since we started on what is presumably the North end of the Map (snow covered trees), we have another advantage that the other teams. Even once they discover the water to their East and West, they may still think that they can explore to their North (or South) depending where the sent their exploration warrior. We had snow, so we know that there is no-one North of us. Teams that did not have snow in the North may have moved North first, and will soon discover that there is nothing but water. Then they will have to backtrack South, only to find the same thing.

But here's the best part... They will probably not take a direct path... They will probably explore along the coast so it will take them forever, to go all the way around back South, and realize that they are on an island. If we move quickly, we can have boats in the water before some teams even realize they are on islands.

But we have to move now because the Vikings have a scout as well, so they are probably close to realizing thay they are on an island too. We can only hope that they did not start on the Northern (or Southern) end of the map as well. Also, they started with Fishing. If they get their boat out first, they could make contact with several teams before we even get our boat out.

The reason I mention all this, is because If we switch our tech to Fishing now we can start a workboat as soon as the worker finishes. Whereas our other rivals that will be taking longer to realize they are on islands will most likely feel that they have already invested too many turns into their first tech to switch. They will delay Fishing and workboats, and we will get the drop on them both in terms of exploration, and diplo.

If you are wondering what the heck our worker is going to do when it finishes building, and we dont have AH yet, then have no fear, the worker can build 1 farm instead to help push growth along while we wait the 6 turns for AH to finish. After that its right back to the Mining-->BW etc tech path that we all want to be on.

The main tipping-point for AH over fishing first, was getting Horse/Immortals for exploring. That is out the window now, so Fishing should take priority over AH. I know this may seem a little unorthodox at first, but we have to take advantage of our superior knowledge here. the other teams in teh UN are already talking about how this is a "coastal" map. Some of them DO NOT realize they are on islands yet... We DO! That is a major advantage for us. Either we are tech racing to Optics/Navigation, or it is a race to capture all the other tiny islands. Either way, boats have to be our priority now, more than ever.

 

[remake20]

I think resources and tile yield is a good idea.

 

[damnrunner]

The main tipping-point for AH over fishing first, was getting Horse/Immortals for exploring.

Wow you really like to fish.

In my view the tipping point was working a 5f1c tile. The faster we work that the faster we grow and can work more tiles to pump out all the boats that you so desperately seem to want.

Making contact is important, but the most important thing at the get go is our economy. If we could magically get contact with every team but had to delay development for 10 turns what good would that do us? This early in the game we can't trade or really do anything diplomatically other than talk. Talking about doing stuff with other teams is nice - but I would rather have the capacity to actually do something when we meet.

Also we should consider the possibility that our island is isolated in which case a very early WB would be a waste of hammers. For that matter we also could be on a crazy spoke type map with a frozen core.

I think we finish AH and at that point depending on what Scout has found we choose between going for fishing or mining.

 

[SilentConfusion]

I do not think that our island will be isolated. I just don't think the map-maker would disregard so many suggestions for exactly the opposite. I think we have to be within galley shot of at least 2 other teams, and quite possibly are within galley range of all of them.

I am also not as quick to jump to the conclusion that we are on the top of the map and that we know which direction to go in. I think DaveMcW specifically said there'd be a few surprises and snow-covered trees that didn't correctly indicate which direction to go in might be one of them. I just wouldn't be so quick to jump to that conclusion, as I expect some attempt at trickiness on the map.

I think I'd actually be in favor of switching to Fishing in light of the new information. If we don't we should at least get it right after AH, but as Sommerswerd says, that may put us behind other teams in the race to make contact.

Don't underestimate the financial aspect of meeting other civs first. Alliances are usually formed with those who meet very early and even though nothing can be done but talk at the early stages, talking can be extremely profitable.

If we are on a small island with galley contact to other land, as I would guess, then we will be shipping our cheap settlers overseas. Immortals might come in handy in colonizing these new lands. It is quite possible that everyone starts on a small or very small island and that there is galley contact with a large central landmass ripe for colonization, which is similar to some of the suggestions. It would certainly make the GLH unbalancing and would be somewhat interesting to see how teams handle expansion across the water. Do you try to launch a sneak attack on a teams small island capitol or take a couple of their landmass cities to swing the tide.

I would not mind delaying AH to get fishing, but I do also see the logic of waiting til we see what our scout finds before reacting.

 

[wideyedwanderer]

I say we switch to fishing now. The potential benefits outweigh the potential drawbacks.

 

[wideyedwanderer]

Although let's keep in mind that with the bombshell announcement in the UN forum many of the teams are now rethinking what type of map this might be.

I would also like to remind everyone to be very careful about what you say in the UN forum. Even seemingly harmless comments could give away hints to our opponents as to what we're planning and what we know.

I think most likely each team starts on a smallish island with a central continent, with possible strategic islands placed in between.

Let's also keep in mind that the Great Lighthouse being disabled could be intended to be somewhat misleading. After all, is the GL really that much more overpowered on a water-heavy map than the Colossus?

 

[TheMeInTeam]

Scout tells us about the island-map first Since we have Dora the Explorer, and we have been able to advance her 2 tiles each turn, whereas 4 of the other teams have lead-in-the-shoes warriors who can only move 1 tile at a time, it is very possible that it will be a few more turns (2 at least) before some teams realize they are on islands.

I wouldn't hold my breath. Not with the GLH ban. Everybody with good game experience will instantly suspect islands. Some starts might give it away even sooner.

The reason I mention all this, is because If we switch our tech to Fishing now we can start a workboat as soon as the worker finishes. Whereas our other rivals that will be taking longer to realize they are on islands will most likely feel that they have already invested too many turns into their first tech to switch. They will delay Fishing and workboats, and we will get the drop on them both in terms of exploration, and diplo.

I am absolutely against murdering our tile yield and expansion rates just to get a boat out a bit sooner. We can move fishing ---> sailing up now since barbs on our landmass are probably a joke (though scouting will see), but even with our info mining makes more sense IMO.

I say we switch to fishing now. The potential benefits outweigh the potential drawbacks.

Losing the equivalent numerous forest chops isn't a "potential" drawback. It's a glaring drawback. Holding out on the silver mines and +1 cap isn't a "potential" drawback either. We won't even hit sailing that much more slowly if we go AH ----> mining...just fishing.

Early contact is nice, yes, but we can still form location based alliances 5-10 turns later. Teams are going to make choices based on tech potential, military positioning, and communication. Rather than underestimating meeting a few turns sooner, it's being overestimated.

 

[remake20]

I'm with TMIT, there is just not much we can do with WBs. Yeah meet other teams, but if nothing happens until we get alphabet then there's not much of a point. Getting mining and working the silver will get us to alphabet even faster. Here is my new tech plan: AH>Mining>Fish>BW or sailing. Could someone help me make up my mind on which should go first BW or sailing. I still have not seen 1 good point to change to fishing.

 

[SilentConfusion]

I'm with TMIT, there is just not much we can do with WBs. Yeah meet other teams, but if nothing happens until we get alphabet then there's not much of a point. Getting mining and working the silver will get us to alphabet even faster. Here is my new tech plan: AH>Mining>Fish>BW or sailing. Could someone help me make up my mind on which should go first BW or sailing. I still have not seen 1 good point to change to fishing.

I don't think TMIT was saying that we couldn't do much even if we do meet them early. Instead I think he was saying that meeting them a few turns later would not be as big a detriment as delaying improvements. Early alliances are usually set long before someone gets Alphabet.

While I was leaning towards getting a boat out ASAP, I was not sure what effect the delay in development would have. Finding people earlier than others can have an economic effect which some don't seem to realize, but how much of that economic effect could still be achieved some number of turns later and is it worth delaying our tile improvement.

When it comes to BW or Sailing I'd choose BW easily. Sailing is not that important right away. We can build galleys but we only need those when we're moving units across water. We can build a lighthouse but I don't think we'll be working water tiles in our capitol any time soon. We cannot build the GLH. The trade benefits only come with multiple cities or when we've met an opponent. BW on the other hand is usefully early in multiple ways.

 

[remake20]

Okay, AH>M>F>BW>S

 

[Norton I]

It seems to me switching to fishing would be a big gamble. If we are really isolated it is extremely important to optimize our growth. Delaying AH would set us back a few turns. Hopefully we can squeeze fishing in before mining without hurting the economy, but someone would have to calculate or test the damage.

I realize early contact also has benefits... but I don't think it outweighs growth. I think our opponents would prefer an alliance with a solid team that they meet a few turns later over an alliance with a team that they saw first, but is behind in economy. (Other teams can do calculations too; if they see our boat and know we don't have fishing as a starting tech, they quickly realize we are running a suboptimal economy.)

 

[Sommerswerd]

Fishing gives us the workboat...

The workboat is:
1. The Best and Fastest way to meet other teams, regardless of which type of map we are on.
2. Our ONLY means to meet other teams on this island map
and, most importantly
3. Our ONLY means to discover where the next islands are for us to expand into are.

If you look at the land we have available, it seems clear that our land was intended to be a whipping factory for expansion onto other landmasses. Teams that figure that out the fastes will have a tremendous advantage. We are completely flush with sheep... Why? So that we can grow fast to fuel the colonization of other landmasses.

That is why getting a workboat ASAP is more important than pasturing the sheep. We need to know where the next islands are so we can plan out how to take them BEFORE our neighbors know about them.

Having all our sheep pastured, and all our silver mined, and all our trees chopped will not do us any good if the closest landmasses get taken from us. If we get beaten to the closest landmasses, its over... we lose... and all the silver and fleeces in the world won't save us.

 

[Sommerswerd]

I think our opponents would prefer an alliance with a solid team that they meet a few turns later over an alliance with a team that they saw first, but is behind in economy.

That is dead wrong... and that line of thinking is what doomed SANCTA and Saturn in the last game. It seems to make sense, but that is not how it works.

Teams are more likely to form alliances with who they meet first... period. Trying to deny this will get us left out in the cold in terms of alliances. We have to make first contact. Forming alliances are the most important factor in the game... Not , not , not ,... alliances. That's what it's all about.

 

[Norton I]

Having all our sheep pastured, and all our silver mined, and all our trees chopped will not do us any good if the closest landmasses get taken from us. If we get beaten to the closest landmasses, its over... we lose... and all the silver and fleeces in the world won't save us.

Colonizing the other landmasses takes more than just discovering them early. We need to be quick with building ships, settlers and defensive units. Growing our cities and boosting our production is key. In other words, we don't have to be the first team to discover the landmass, we want to be the first team capable of settling there. So we to find a balance somewhere...

I think we should ask ourselves where we want to build our second city. If we will build it on our island, we have time enough to discover another landmass to settle city #3 on. If we want to build our second city overseas, then you may be right that we need fishing boats already.

 

[Norton I]

That is dead wrong... and that line of thinking is what doomed SANCTA and Saturn in the last game. It seems to make sense, but that is not how it works.

It sounds so wrong to me to base your diplomacy so heavily on who you meet first But I don't have experience with these diplomacy games so if you say this is how it works, I'll have to believe you.

 

[remake20]

^Well, that seems to be the case, though I am surprised on why. I think Norton has a point that it's not who discovers them first get them, but who settles them, and I would think that we only have one small island that we have to battle with an opponent for. BTW if I disappear the mods think somehow I have a double account or something, but I don't and am not sure why they think that. I'm just giving you a heads-up if I vanish into no where they banned me or something. Though I hope that's not the case.

 

[mariogreymist]

I remain solidly in favor of keeping the AH->wheel/mining->bw line of research. Here's why:

We can have at least 3, and possibly 4 cities up and running at the point where we have fishing/sailing. This results in the ability to actually use the galleys we are building to ferry settlers/escorts/workers to island colonies in significant numbers much earlier than if we switch now, and are later getting our initial island settled. If we lose out on a nearby island site, we can be in a very good position to take it with an early naval based immortal/axe attack, as the only way to get to new islands quickly will necessarily result in those island colonies being weakly defended and the initial islands underdeveloped. And if we have 3-4 overlapped whipping cities building immortals/galleys where our early opponents have can only have 1-2 cities doing so (because their settlers are more expensive and they diverted early and to overseas settlement), we will defeat them badly.

City sites 3E1S, 5E2N of capital, and possibly 3N1W (food dependent). This means at least 3, and probably 4 quality sites pumping better early units (more developed land + AH + bw = significant chance of immortals/axes) in higher numbers than our neighbors are likely to field (due to our IMP trait, we will have more cities sooner, which means we can be whipping and sharing food more aggressively).

 

[Sommerswerd]

I don't have experience with these diplomacy games so if you say this is how it works, I'll have to believe you.

Yes that is how it works, but dont just take my word for it... Read Lord Parkin's explanation of Why Saturn Lost the Last MTDG Game. Its a prettly long explanation, but in relevant part... one of the reasons he gives is:

I also made the mistake of assuming that it would be easy to contact the other teams via land... this certainly had a major consequences in the world diplomatic situation for us - we met most of the other teams so late that there was never any chance for us to negotiate any alliances before other teams had already done so. Not that we didn't still try, but it was obvious that loyalties already lay elsewhere for most of the teams we came in contact with...

Looking back now, the better thing to do would have been to build a Work Boat early on to get contact as some other teams did... but at the time our primary concern was trying to keep our empire alive with so little food. It's something I'll remember for next game, though.

Notice that LP says he made the mistake of prioritizing over early contact... And that he WONT make that mistake again.

 

[remake20]

Does that really mean we need to tech fishing NOW, instead of next tech?