Turns 1-20

[templar_x]

What would we need the river forest for later? We collect the 2s on growth from the other forest just as well, but would not work that valuable river tile for a very long time if we do not chop the forest. I want it worked though, either by the cap (especially if it is a bg ) or by another town.

templar_x

 

[I. Larkin]

What would we need the river forest for later?

For later chop. We work on BG anyway, so it is good to mine road it ASAP.
Also we will have second City faster. Trade is that Ivory will be lot later.

 

[I. Larkin]

size works food shields build commerce research worker
1 1 sugar hill 2 2 6 6 moves to wheat
2 1 sugar hill 2 2 6 6 i
3 1 bonus i wheat 4 2 5 5 i
4 1 bonus i wheat 4 2 5 5 i 4
5 1 bonus ir wheat 4 2 6 6 r 3 4
6 1 bonus ir wheat+forest 4 4 warrior (MP) 6 6 r 3 3
7 2 wheat, sugar hill 4 3 8 8 moves to BG 3 3
8 2 wheat, sugar hill 4 3 8 8 m 3 3
9 2 wheat, sugar hill 4 3 8 8 m 6 3
10 2 wheat, SH (low culture) 4 3 8 8 m 5 6
11 2 wheat, r m bg+forest 4 6 8 8 m 5 5
12 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg 4 5 10 9 r 5 5
13 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg 4 5 9 8 r 5 5
14 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg 4 5 9 8 move GL 7 5
15 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg 4 5 9 8 r 5 7
16 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg+forest 4 7 9 8 r 5 7
17 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, forest 3 7 11 9 moves to Plains 1e 59 5
18 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, r grass 4 5 11 10 r 61
19 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, r grass 4 5 granary 11 10 r
20 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, forest 3 7 13 12 moves to Ivory
21 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, forest 3 7 13 12 i
22 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, i ivory, r grass +forest 3 7 15 13 i
23 5 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, ir ivory , r gras 4 5 15 13 i
24 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, ir ivory, 4 5 settler 14 12 r

In txt file I go to 25 turn and did not calculated commerce yet.
Have to go now. Have oppinion that this variant better, but not 100 sure.
May be will connect later.

Nobody vote?? Shall I continue my SS?

 

[Lanzelot]

Don't move yet. I'm currently completing Ivan's ss, and it looks quite good. There are some mistakes in shields output, but I think we get the first town significantly earlier.

 

[I. Larkin]

Can yo e-mail me when finish?

I recon 2 problems that can't resolve:
1) Granary at 64 or 1 turn growth delay.
2) Second City and growth of first at the same time - 2 shields lost.

But may be still better then Ivory first.

Struggle through : (It is first time I work with Excel...)

17 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, forest
18 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, r grass
19 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, r grass
20 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, forest
21 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, forest
22 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, i ivory +forest
23 5 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, ir ivory , r gras
24 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, ir ivory,
25 3 rir Ivory, sugar hill, rrm bg ;;; wheat (2)
26 4 wheat, sugar hill, ir ivory;;; rrm bg (2)
27 4 wheat, sugar hill, ir ivory, ir plains
28 4 wheat, sugar hill, ir ivory, ir plains, rr grass
29 5 rr grass, sugar hill, ir ivory, ir plains, ir plains2
30 5 wheat, sugar hill, ir ivory, ir plains, ir plains2 + forest
31 5 wheat, sugar hill, ir ivory, ir plains, ir plains2, rr grass
32 5 sugar hill, ir ivory, ir plains, ir plains2

 

[I. Larkin]

Don't move yet. I'm currently completing Ivan's ss, and it looks quite good. There are some mistakes in shields output, but I think we get the first town significantly earlier.

Go to bed now. I cant predict that forward: Probability of mistake is too high.

But form general point of view "work on BG first" is a good move.

We also will have solid connection between Cities and save forest for further use.

We may wait until tomorrow 10 am GMT say.

 

[templar_x]

i´ve worked nearly 50 hours in 3 days now. sorry i won´t participate in this comparison. if you tell me that in the morning i should move to the bg, i will do so. however, to me it sounds contra-intuitive to delay our happy-tile which by the same time is our strongest commerce tile.

i have no clue what we should save the forest for, "later". shields from forests are really worth the chop very early, or pretty late, in my eyes. in between we will have enough shields for a combo factory that may be running for quite a long time.

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

Ivan is right: move to BG is better!

We get the second town (and consequently the first curragh) 3 turns earlier! We reach Philosophy in exactly the same turn (the second town compensates for the missing ivory commerce). Attached is a spreadsheet. It is not yet perfect (we waste 4 shields on the second settler - perhaps this can be optimized or sped up with the forest chop?!)

So let's go to the BG!

Lanzelot

 

[I. Larkin]

Ivan is right: move to BG is better!

We get the second town (and consequently the first curragh) 3 turns earlier! We reach Philosophy in exactly the same turn (the second town compensates for the missing ivory commerce). Attached is a spreadsheet. It is not yet perfect (we waste 4 shields on the second settler - perhaps this can be optimized or sped up with the forest chop?!)

So let's go to the BG!

Lanzelot

Thanks.
I still have questions about turn 25, but we may discuss it later.
Anyhow move worker to BG is better move.
t-x, go ahead.
Ivan

 

[templar_x]

if you indeed found a better sequence last night! i will try to dip into it and understand why this works better later if i can find the time.

i made the move. dunno why, as we discussed here that everything should be fine before 11 a.m. or sth like that today, but we went over the 24h now...

templar_x

 

[Lanzelot]

but we went over the 24h now...

No problem, we'll catch up during the next turns. But I think this was important.

One more point: I noticed you used the Pyramids as pre-build. Don't know if this is smart, as now everybody knows that one of our starting techs is Masonry. Hope you changed it to barracks now?!

 

[Lanzelot]

I still have questions about turn 25, but we may discuss it later.

In turn 25 we cannot give the wheat to second town, because then the governor in the capital would not pick the forest on growth!
Or wait, perhaps we can: if the governor picks the rrm BG, we would also have enough shields for the warrior, wouldn't we? Need to test in the sandkasten, can't do it in the head now...

Is anybody working on a settler first ss? If not, perhaps I can do it today (completely forgot that we have a holiday today, until my wife told me yesterday evening... would have gone to work this morning, if no one had told me... )

 

[I. Larkin]

I checked Lantzelot's SS, and made some corrections.
Looks that it is optimum we can find. Version is to road Ivory first, than Irrigate.
We may put rrmBG straight.

24 3 "wheat, rrm bg, ir ivory" 4 5 settler 11 10 r
25 3 " sugar hill, rrm bg, ir ivory + r gras." 2 5(10)

/e-mail to t-x has returned/

 

[templar_x]

No problem, we'll catch up during the next turns. But I think this was important.

One more point: I noticed you used the Pyramids as pre-build. Don't know if this is smart, as now everybody knows that one of our starting techs is Masonry. Hope you changed it to barracks now?!

Argh, I really have to start thinking in terms of a game played by human opponents!
This is my normal single player prebuilding behaviour, because I would know immediately that this was a prebuild...

I have not changed it yet, will do so next turn.

templar_x

 

[I. Larkin]

One more point: I noticed you used the Pyramids as pre-build. Don't know if this is smart, as now everybody knows that one of our starting techs is Masonry. Hope you changed it to barracks now?!

Before we contact they can't see our wonder build.
But better change, just in case.

 

[Lanzelot]

"Perfected" my ss. Didn't see that Ivan has also done it now. Will compare our results later, but as Ivan I think we are now pretty close to the optimum.

 

[templar_x]

Had a short look on Ivan´s ss. I am not sure about the research # on t23, but it does not matter there anyway.

@ Lanzelot - so the time limit per turn is an average number?

I am still working on my papers and contracts, so I won´t be able to make the settler first-ss.

templar_x

 

[I. Larkin]

I took file and will play sometime today.

 

[I. Larkin]

14 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg 4 5 10 9 move GL
15 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg 4 5 10 9 m
16 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg+forest 4 7 10 9 m
17 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, mgras 4 6 12 10 m
18 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, mgras 4 6 11 9 m
19 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, mrgras 3 6 granary 12 10 r
20 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, mrgras 3 6 12 10 r
21 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, mrgras+forest 3 8 12 10 moves to Plains 1e
22 5 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, mrgras, rforest 4 8 12 10 r
23 5 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, mrgras, rforest 4 8 13 10 r
24 4 wheat, rrm bg, ir ivory 4 5 settler 11 10 moves to Ivory

I have considered variant to mine grasland first, to grow faster. But it look not good as previous version. Better go to Ivory sooner .

Another version road Ivory first:

19 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, rgras 4 5 granary 12 10 r
20 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, ivory 3 6 12 10 moves to Ivory
21 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, rivory 3 6 12 10 r
22 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, rivory+forest 4 8 12 10 r
23 5 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, i ivory , r gras 4 6(32) 13 10 i
24 3 wheat, rrm bg, ir ivory 4 5 settler 11 10 i
25 3 rrm bg, sugar hill, ir ivory + r grass 2 5(10) 11+3 14 i

What do you think?

 

[Lanzelot]

Neither version looks familiar to me?!? I thought we agreed on this sequence:

14 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg 4 5 10 9 move GL
15 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg 4 5 10 9 r
16 3 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg+forest 4 7 10 9 r
17 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, ivory 3 6 12 10 moves to Plains 1e
18 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, r grass 4 5(60) 11 9 r
19 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, ivory 3 6 granary 12 10 r
20 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, ivory 3 6 12 10 moves to Ivory
21 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, ivory 3 6 12 10 i
22 4 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, i ivory+forest 4 8 12 10 i
23 5 wheat, sugar hill, rrm bg, i ivory , r gras 4 6(32) 13 10 i
24 3 wheat, rrm bg, ir ivory 4 5 settler 11 10 r
25 3 rrm bg, sugar hill, ir ivory + r grass 4 5(10) 11+3 14 r

(Excel in post #176)

So basically skip the mine in turns 15-18 (it's not yet needed) and get the ivory tile productive earlier.

Edit: not completely sure, whether roading or irrigating Ivory first is better.