Tweaks to Fealty

[CrazyG]

I think we need to slow down. Exactly why is Fealty suddenly so bad?

Most of the discussion about these policy trees has two sides, look at the photojournals, advice requests, or the group games. There are people claiming that you have several options well balanced against each. There are others saying that they always take the same thing. I don't see consensus that fealty is weak.

Fealty is very good when paired with things such as authority, zealotry, and certain civ's uniques.
The most food, and usually the best production (artistry has more only, if and only if you very isolated).
The most faith BY FAR. Faith is a rare yield, and its useful.

Fealty is weak when you are isolated (same as authority). This isn't a balance problem, its a feature.
Fealty does not move you towards any particular win condition, other than maybe domination. If there is a problem, this is it..
Taj Mahal is weird.

So what I would do is change Taj Mahal to address the win condition thing.


PS- two things not related to policies that make Fealty worse
Its much easier to reform a religion than before, making faith less valuable.
Iconography is really, really good and it doesn't involve spending faith. Makes something like zealotry less appealing.

 

[chicorbeef]

I think we need to slow down. Exactly why is Fealty suddenly so bad?

Most of the discussion about these policy trees has two sides, look at the photojournals, advice requests, or the group games. There are people claiming that you have several options well balanced against each. There are others saying that they always take the same thing. I don't see consensus that fealty is weak.

Fealty is very good when paired with things such as authority, zealotry, and certain civ's uniques.
The most food, and usually the best production (artistry has more only, if and only if you very isolated).
The most faith BY FAR. Faith is a rare yield, and its useful.

Fealty is weak when you are isolated (same as authority). This isn't a balance problem, its a feature.
Fealty does not move you towards any particular win condition, other than maybe domination. If there is a problem, this is it..
Taj Mahal is weird.

So what I would do is change Taj Mahal to address the win condition thing.


PS- two things not related to policies that make Fealty worse
Its much easier to reform a religion than before, making faith less valuable.
Iconography is really, really good and it doesn't involve spending faith. Makes something like zealotry less appealing.

I have never liked Fealty's finisher (it's boring/unfocused) and I think Divine Right is a relatively weak policy. Small bumps to Serfdom sound alright to me too because I treat that policy as filler to get to Burghers (which I think doesn't need the TR buff, it's strong as is).

Other than that, yeah, I agree with you, the Faith boni in Fealty are strong, Nobility/the scaler are strong, Burghers is strong, Monasteries are strong, the ability to Faith buy Great Artists is strong. Overall it's a solid consistent tree. Shifting some power from the Burghers policy (the only reason I bother to complete Fealty) and into the middle of the tree I think is good design.

 

[crdvis16]

The Taj gets the award for 'thing most often talked about in the negative around here for the past few weeks.' I think it is due for another look. Changing it (and buffing it) and a small bump to some policy values is all that is needed here IMO.

G

Removing said gimmick. I liked the idea at the time, and it is 'thematic,' but it is also absurd.

Hey, I'm not perfect.

G

In defense of the Taj Mahal's gimmick, it was really fun to benefit from it in my recent game as the Huns! But I understand that it could probably use a change to something less gimmicky and more consistent.

 

[Stalker0]

I am in a favor of a Taj change, as opposed to a greater fealty adjustment.

 

[Gokudo01]

I really dont like the scaler, extra city strength, maybe remove it and bump extra food
Moreover it s a pain to play against when you are warring

 

[Gazebo]

Changes:

New Taj is a Super Pagoda:

The empire enters a Golden Age. +1 Golden Age Points per turn for every 2 Citizens in the City. +3 Science, Culture, and Faith in the City for every Religion present. Reduces Religious Unrest in all cities.​

Is also no longer the Fealty Finisher. The Red Fort is now the Fealty Finisher. Turtle, Ho!

Bumping the finisher yield to +3 (is +2), this should be all that Fealty needs.

G

 

[pineappledan]

Nobility: +1 Gold to Monastery.
Organized Religion: +1 Faith to Monastery.
Serfdom: +1 Food to Monastery.
Divine Right: +1 Culture to Monastery [if happiness is getting nerfed, their bonus is getting an indirect nerf ]
Burghers: +1 Production to Monastery

Easy peasy. Fealty made great again.

I really Like @Enginseer's idea. This prevents an abuse of the opener for heavy faith civs (Byzantium, Ethiopia etc.), who get a ton of benefit from a faith purchase which is of very little cost to them, relative to other civs.

Having the monastery's full potential require investing further into fealty makes dumping a point into the opener, then going down statecraft/artistry less of a safe bet.

 

[Stalker0]

Having the monastery's full potential require investing further into fealty makes dumping a point into the opener, then going down statecraft/artistry less of a safe bet.

What you see as a bug I see as a feature. I think it’s great if civs want to dip into a tree and then go somewhere else. They lose out on a finisher in exchange for a new synergy elsewhere.

I think it creates much more variety than “i pick tree x, then tree y, then tree z”[/USER]

 

[Omen of Peace]

I like mix-and-matching, but I do think Fealty suffers from more "skippability" than other trees: the left-most policy is weak, and the right-most is very situational, i.e. useful only when you need a lot of faith (e.g. Zealotry) or you want to spread (certain founder/enhancer beliefs).
I would have buffed these.

I also liked Enginseer thematically and mechanically, but I recognize perhaps it's too late in the cycle for such a change.

Unlike others, I don't mind the scaler so much - but I do find Fealty weaker than Statecraft in most situations for my style of play.

 

[Enginseer]

I just find Fealty bad at handling happiness like the other policies do so well at which is why the Monastery buff that I suggest could give it the boost it needs to be relevant.

Statecraft is basically the fun policy tree where if you need to catch up real bad, you can take it to abuse the bonuses on trade routes to your city-states(not helping your neighbors). It also helps reduces poverty a lot which is huge in civs that fall behind.

Artistry is also the fun policy tree to stay ahead in the game with reductions in illiteracy and reaching your golden ages much much faster which is huge in civs that get ahead.

Then, there's Fealty where instead of catching up or staying ahead you make others slow down and prevent others from slowing you down. It's about staying independent and has a little of both for catching up and staying ahead. You get rewarded for having an infrastructure(but not as much as Artistry), while you have bonuses for not building up your infrastructure(oh shoot you forgot to build a wall, no problem the fealty bonus should suffice). However, the Monastery should be the key building in helping Fealty stay relevant and hence I suggested the buff.