Narz
keeping it real
Yeah I find it a bit funny cause it seems a lot of these tradwife seeking dudes are incels complaining women are hors but are idolizing women who are basically sugar babies. Weird
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Narz
keeping it real
In the states a middle class college educated person could pay off a house in a few years, good luck w that now, you won't even be done paying off college
Kouvb593kdnuewnd
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Not hard to do in like Sweden and go and check videos and such how spartant middle class was like 50 years ago, no computers, junk cars, probably no swiming pools, limited vacations, limited food choices, no internet and a lot less material stuff overall. Like a pretty normal middle class household in Sweden have robots doing things like lawmowing and vacum cleaning, probably some sort of pool, likely an electric car nowday, possibly air conditioner, maybe travel 1-2 times to other countries while working less hours and years than the middle class did in the past and also in less dangerous jobs and live in a much cleaner society.
And in case it isn't clear to everyone, I am not a fan of "tradwives" or more broadly, any roles made obligatory by one's gender. That said, I know more than a few women for whom "1950s housewife" is not just desirable but in fact among their kinks - enough women for me to treat it as my own personal default. So long as it's legitimately consensual among the participants, then have at it. As soon as it isn't consensual (and my sense is the fascholes aren't particularly concerned about informed consent for almost anything), then it rolls into abuse and deserves to be stomped on.
Gori the Grey
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Yes, in that regard, the cartoon in the specimen is inadvertently revealing. The actual 50s-style husband did not have to work two jobs so that his wife could stay home. That the male figure in the cartoon accepts that as the price for having a wife who will stay home and raise the kids is a tacit admission that we mostly do not live in an economy where that can be done any more, even if both parties were open to the traditional roles of breadwinner and homemaker, and the traditional gendering of those roles. If (as various posters have indicated) this is a little snippet from the contemporary tradwife ideology, what that ideology is nostalgic for is not just the division of roles, but for economic circumstances where one wage-earner, working one job, could provide for a family. It is not, in fact, the "ultimate flex" for the man in this cartoon to have to take on two jobs; it is. rather, a sign of one of the ways that the middle class has been impoverished, weakened, since the 50s.
We work our way outward from that to the presence of Musk in the image. When he took over Twitter, he fired a bunch of people, just announcing that the remainder were going to be more "hard core" in their work habits (i.e. work the equivalent of two jobs for the same pay--for nobody's benefit other than that of Musk himself). The entire image is a fantasy of Musk's and it doesn't have to do primarily with gender, but with class. It's promoting the "hustle" culture that we discussed in the Lying Flat thread, whereby "job creators" squeeze more and more value out of the work of their workers. It promotes that culture by connecting it with manliness (flexing, hard work, having a big-bosomed wife). But the message here is only indirectly about gender. The core message is "work two jobs."
The two figures in the cartoon need to band together to strangle Musk. Then eat him. If they prefer traditional gender roles, then the man can strangle Musk, and the woman can cook.
Kouvb593kdnuewnd
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Life expectency was way lower in the past as well compared to today and life expectency is probably one of the better ways to check well being of a country. 1950 or 1970 USA by that matter would probably be considered a developing country by today standard.
Narz
keeping it real
Didn't realize musk posted this. In a sane society you shouldn't have to "hustle" (sacrifice health and relationships) just to afford basic things like a house and marriage
Narz
keeping it real
Cancer treatment was worse and smoking was acceptable. Life expectancy starting to drop now unfortunately
Kouvb593kdnuewnd
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Not in most countries, USA seems like an exception, like in Sweden the life expectency seems to be improving rather than declining.
Narz
keeping it real
Yeah you guys are cool, I'll come visit soon.
I'm most excited to see Netherlands. It's funny they sound more like Americans than Brits even tho they're neighbors to the British, they sound like 75% American and 25% German. Don't have enough money to get off the island and travel yet
Choosing one data point to compare life in the 50s with life today is ignoring the hundreds of ways that life has changed between then and now. Housing then was not like housing now and the participation by banks and other lenders was different too. The consumerism we have now was mostly non existent then. Important appliances were a stove, refrig, toaster, vacuum, radio, washing machine. There were no subscription services (other than magazines). One car families dominated those who owned cars.
Narz
keeping it real
Do you have a house? I think alot of people would like to own a home but it's much harder now.
Kouvb593kdnuewnd
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Want cheap house, move to another location in which houses are cheap, which is rather easy nowdays with work from home being a thing. Houses where I live cost maybe 4 times my yearly income give or take. In a country like USA you can probably move to a cheap city like Detroit while maybe getting a Silicon Valley salary (although that depend on the company). Living in big cities is probably a bad idea because prices are higher than salaries compared to towns and rural areas.
Today you can probably land a job in which you can be so rich you never need to work after like age 40 if you willing to live frugal, overall it seems significantly eaiser to get really rich today compared to the past, especially since you can get high paying jobs and possibly other income sources while still being able to live in low cost locations.
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Not sure how thats relevant to tradwives.
Yes, we do and it is paid off (made last payment in 2016). It is harder now. My wife worked part time and raised two kids; I worked full time for over 35 years to enable that process. That was hard too.
Kouvb593kdnuewnd
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With right education, programming is very good I think, you can today start at $100k salary and reach $200k, so two people, that is $200-400k, probably like $140-250k after taxes. Cost of living in USA for a family in an average location for a family is probably about $70k/yr, which leave $70-180k left to save for retirement, pay of college debt and mortgage. So with right education and job it should be easy. Average house cost in USA is maybe $300k, so that family could maybe pay it off in 2-4 years.
An actual upper middle class household today in USA can probably afford things like an cheap airplane and retire at relative young age with house paid off and millions in net worth.
An actual upper middle class household today in USA can probably afford things like an cheap airplane and retire at relative young age with house paid off and millions in net worth.
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Gori the Grey
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Well I'm not sure that he did. It could be a poster who has chosen a Musk-themed avatar. But I think my point holds regardless. The anxieties that are captured by the whole constellation of images concern money at least as much as they do gender roles, and the nostalgia is as much for a time when men could earn a good income as for when women knew their place.
I could say more. But, I mean, we should keep in mind that this post was viewed by 1600 people and liked by 3. There's a crapload of junk on Twitter. We'd wear ourselves out trying to analyze it all. And to what end? To get into the heads of the three people who like John Hagen's account of the ultimate source of art and beauty?
I've already wasted more of my time on it than the thing deserves in its own right. All of us here have. That's fine if we think it encapsulates broader trendlines in society, e.g. tradwife ideology. Although even in that respect, the 3 likes is telling.
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Bonyduck Campersang
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Wasn't Musk who posted it, but might as well have been
Kouvb593kdnuewnd
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I get feeling that most americans may actually be in various stage of poverty, but think they are middle class even though they lack stuff like retirement, vacation while struggle with money which don't sound like middle class to me.
My co-workers in USA get things like 20-30 paid vacation, upwards $250k salary (as senior developer), althougth this is in Palo Alto one of the most expensive area so I assume their lifestyle is more like what you would get by make $125k in USA on average, that actually sound like middle class to me, not people making $40-50k, those from my caculation would be poor or really close to it from what those salaries translate to in Sweden, while $125k would probably be equivavlent to a solid middle to maybe upper middle class salary in Sweden.
I think I caculated somewhere that the median salary in USA should be like $80k or something instead of $50-60k, which is probably a major reason why so many struggle with money.
This should give some idea how hard people at 50% and under have and how much the system favor like the top 10% and beyond https://www.bls.gov/ecec/factsheets/compensation-percentile-estimates.htm
That is like more than 5 times the difference between bottom 10% and top 10%, in Sweden the difference is like 2.2 times and USA don't actually seems to be more productive per worked hour either https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm
My co-workers in USA get things like 20-30 paid vacation, upwards $250k salary (as senior developer), althougth this is in Palo Alto one of the most expensive area so I assume their lifestyle is more like what you would get by make $125k in USA on average, that actually sound like middle class to me, not people making $40-50k, those from my caculation would be poor or really close to it from what those salaries translate to in Sweden, while $125k would probably be equivavlent to a solid middle to maybe upper middle class salary in Sweden.
I think I caculated somewhere that the median salary in USA should be like $80k or something instead of $50-60k, which is probably a major reason why so many struggle with money.
This should give some idea how hard people at 50% and under have and how much the system favor like the top 10% and beyond https://www.bls.gov/ecec/factsheets/compensation-percentile-estimates.htm
That is like more than 5 times the difference between bottom 10% and top 10%, in Sweden the difference is like 2.2 times and USA don't actually seems to be more productive per worked hour either https://data.oecd.org/lprdty/gdp-per-hour-worked.htm
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As of 2021 there were 131,202 households in the US. (In 1967: 60,813 households) Change in Households: +71,000
% of Households in 2021: total money income
36% make less than $50,000 annually (in 1967: 50%) 2021 versus 1967 HH: 47,232 vs 30,406
44% make between $50,000 and $150,000 (46%) 2021 versus 1967 HH: 57,728 vs 27,973
20% make over $150,000 (3.5%) 2021 versus 1967 HH: 26,240 vs 2,128
The median income in 2021: $71,784 ($50,803 in 1967)
All dollars are 2021 dollars
This is income only and not cost of living.
% of Households in 2021: total money income
36% make less than $50,000 annually (in 1967: 50%) 2021 versus 1967 HH: 47,232 vs 30,406
44% make between $50,000 and $150,000 (46%) 2021 versus 1967 HH: 57,728 vs 27,973
20% make over $150,000 (3.5%) 2021 versus 1967 HH: 26,240 vs 2,128
The median income in 2021: $71,784 ($50,803 in 1967)
All dollars are 2021 dollars
This is income only and not cost of living.
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