Two-speed EU?

[Winner]

Suppose we were to have only one. Want a bet it would be manufactured by EADS, or Wegmann? France benefits, Germany benefits... what's in it for the other european nations?

No thank you, I'd rather negotiate will all possible suppliers first, and then either choose one or see if joining an european project for a particular design was desirable.
NOT being forced to buy whatever the french, british & german with to sell.

EU's military market is not big enough for 5 or more major arms producers. US, the most militarized Western country, has just a few, usually forming some kind of blocks.

EU must do the same. Smaller companies doesn't have to stop, they should join with some of the big ones. If the member states didn't mess with the market, it would have already happened.

 

[Winner]

Uhm, Winner, this is the European Union we're talking about, not the Third Reich.

Really? Thanks for pointing that out, one could forget!

Thanks for evoking Godwin, BTW.

Imo there's as much difference between a Brit and a Pole as there is between a Russian or Turk.

No.

A Portuguese has as much in common with a Finn as she does with a Ukrainian.

Ukrainians are Europeans too, so I agree.

The special bit about the EU is that it's a mix of so many different cultures, who still are, surprisingly similar in the end. And if you'd ever decently talk with a Russian or Turk you'd realise this counts for them as well. (spare those living in backwards rural areas, but people in backward rural areas are exceptions everywhere)

I've been over it so many times, why don't you people LISTEN?! (or read )

Europe obviously have many subcultures, but compared to non-European cultures, these differences are rather trivial.

It's well showing in real life. There has never been so much resentment towards enlargement as in the case of Turkey. Common Europeans obviously understand the cultural differences much more than you do.

 

[Shabbaman]

Enlargment in itself is not a bad thing, but it doesn´t advance the EU as a unified state. From the EU perspective that´s not strange, because the EU is aimed at cooperation instead of unification. EU citizens expect more of it though. For founding members it makes sense to unify. For new members it´s tough to keep up with the rest of the EU to begin with. So if you enlarge, you get new members having to catch up. Unification is a long way though. The early member nations never resolved the issues that were a problem over two decades ago: distribution of money.

That´s the only thing that´s causing resentment here (in the Netherlands). The dutch feel they pay too much (whether that´s true doesn´t matter, you can use statistics any way you want), and that the agricultural countries (France, mainly, it was the prime objection against Poland as well though). Sure, everyone dislikes that the EU makes our law, but that hasn´t got anything to do with the EU but more with the fact that it´s a law to begin with. Besides that the dutch government has a vote in what law the EU comes up with, so that´s rather a shortsightedness of the populus than a shortcoming of the EU...

But the idea of enlargment brings the fear of having to pay more. Crap, surely: being a federation doesn´t mean you pay more, you could actually pay less. It would need a reform, and it´s exactly that what the dutch want. That´s what it boils down to. Not a reform that means nothing like this new treaty (real power to the EU representatives please, not symbolic power). In the end The Netherlands is one of the countries that benefits most of the EU, being a mainport. As a country with a very high population density we benefit most from the strict environmental laws. No one cares about that, but it´s your own health that´s benefitting. Taking measures no one likes, that´s what the EU is best at.

There´s nothing wrong with a 2 speed EU. In fact, there´s always been a 2 speed EU. The Netherlands, Belgium and Luxemburg used to have (still have, but it doesn´t mean a lot anymore) a union, there´s the Euro adopters, and the difference betwee existing and new member states. The problem I see is that if you formalize a 2 speed EU, you´d be getting a 3 speed EU in fact (because of enlargement). Enlargement is what keeps the EU from solving internal problems. Focus on those problems in any speed you want, but stop getting more nations that make the dutch feel they have to pay even more

 

[Gelion]

Come on, just check the armband:

Well noted.

 

[Cato the Elder]

Godwin was well deserved in this case, I don't make Nazi references often but you were starting to sound a bit too scary. Muslims, gypsies and Russians not allowed?

First off, why are Ukrainians Europeans while Russians aren't? Many Ukrainians identify themselves with Russians, as much as they do with Poles or Belorussians. There is no inherent cultural difference that makes it impossible to let Russia join. Granted, the political climate isn't suitable at all at this moment but that's not saying that could change and Russia could be a regular, working member of the EU.

And people don't like Turkey because they're afraid of brown, Muslim people. It's just general propaganda. I live in a town with a pretty large Turkish population, and trust me, most anyone who's talked to them would realise that they're pretty much the same as the rest of us, despite the fact that they eat like Greeks and talk a bit strange. Once people stop thinking that Muslims = terrorists/thieves, it'll all get better.

Besides, you'd be surprised how much opposition there was to Poland and the like joining here in Belgium. Trust me, until 2004, you guys didn't have a very good reputation. Everyone thought you were thieves and came to steal our jobs. A terrible argument, imo, because in the end Poles are just people like the rest of us.

 

[Winner]

Godwin was well deserved in this case, I don't make Nazi references often but you were starting to sound a bit too scary. Muslims, gypsies and Russians not allowed?

Oh jeez, I'll probably start ignoring people who are deliberately misinterpreting my words.

Where the hell did I say anything like that? How on Earth can anyone make this out of what I said, that's a mystery to me

I just said that EU has no chance whatsoever to even fully integrate, if it admits countries culturally different from the present members. It's rather obvious, it is hard to overcome even the inter-european cultural differences, imagine how hard would it be with Muslim countries inside. Impossible.

First off, why are Ukrainians Europeans while Russians aren't?

Russians are Europeans too The problem with them is that they don't feel that they belong to Europe. Russians have a distinct identity and they haven't made up their mind yet.

Ukraine, the Western parts of it, have been westernized in the past, and Ukrainians feel European.

Many Ukrainians identify themselves with Russians, as much as they do with Poles or Belorussians. There is no inherent cultural difference that makes it impossible to let Russia join. Granted, the political climate isn't suitable at all at this moment but that's not saying that could change and Russia could be a regular, working member of the EU.

I didn't say that Russian membership is impossible, but given the differences between Russia and Europe, I am pretty sure that Russian membership would make political integration and federalization IMPOSSIBLE.

Either start reading what I write, or please don't respond, I don't have a time to explain everything I said twice.

And people don't like Turkey because they're afraid of brown, Muslim people. It's just general propaganda. I live in a town with a pretty large Turkish population, and trust me, most anyone who's talked to them would realise that they're pretty much the same as the rest of us, despite the fact that they eat like Greeks and talk a bit strange. Once people stop thinking that Muslims = terrorists/thieves, it'll all get better.

Turkey is an Islamic country, its culture has totally different roots, it does not belong to Europe. Period. It's not about hatred or xenophobia, they just don't fit, like China or Zimbabwe. EU is European union, not Eurasian or Eurafrican union.

Besides, you'd be surprised how much opposition there was to Poland and the like joining here in Belgium. Trust me, until 2004, you guys didn't have a very good reputation. Everyone thought you were thieves and came to steal our jobs. A terrible argument, imo, because in the end Poles are just people like the rest of us.

I am not a Pole Central Europe isn't just Poland, and it's quite sad that you people don't seem to know more about it than you knew 20 years ago...

 

[Winner]

Well noted.

Great discovery, really, it took you just 3 years.

Anyway, you have a totally wrong idea of what the avatar means

 

[Gelion]

Great discovery, really, it took you just 3 years.

Anyway, you have a totally wrong idea of what the avatar means

I was skeptical of it the moment it showed up. But perhaps I am wrong about you. Enlighten us, what does your military EU avatar mean?

 

[Winner]

I was skeptical of it the moment it showed up. But perhaps I am wrong about you. Enlighten us, what does your military EU avatar mean?

When I made it, it was a reaction to all the eurosceptics, something which will provoke them and make fun of their own prejudices. It looks good so I kept it.

 

[Gelion]

When I made it, it was a reaction to all the eurosceptics, something which will provoke them and make fun of their own prejudices. It looks good so I kept it.

By wearing a party/army/police -type of a badge you promote the future of the EU?!! Good job!

 

[Shekwan]

Turkey is as much a part of Europe as Russia is. It doesn't matter what religion they are, they are a democratic society whats the problem? I mean the only non secular government in western europe is the UK and they aren't exactly Church of England fundamentalists!

I definately got the nazi vibe from the ''we need to be culturally homogenous'' and EU armband combo... intentional or not.

 

[kronic]

Turkey is as much a part of Europe as Russia is.

i.e. not at all?

 

[Mirc]

Turkey is as much a part of Europe as Russia is.

I totally disagree, completely and wholly.

 

[Winner]

By wearing a party/army/police -type of a badge you promote the future of the EU?!! Good job!

You have a Soviet symbol in your avatar, but you question my motives - excellent Never mind, I don't have to explain anything.

 

[Winner]

Turkey is as much a part of Europe as Russia is. It doesn't matter what religion they are, they are a democratic society whats the problem?

Taiwan is democratic too, does it mean it's European? Should we accept them if they ask for the membership?

I mean the only non secular government in western europe is the UK and they aren't exactly Church of England fundamentalists!

I definately got the nazi vibe from the ''we need to be culturally homogenous'' and EU armband combo... intentional or not.

That's because you people are totally biased

By "culturally homogenous" I meant "without members not sharing European culture". Your misinterpretations or feeling are rather irrelevant.

 

[Gelion]

You have a Soviet symbol in your avatar, but you question my motives - excellent Never mind, I don't have to explain anything.

Yes, it is a modified flag of he Soviet navy (in case you didn't notice it is also a mockery). You have a problem with that?
But you're right, its better tokeep silent when you can't explain your motives....

 

[Shekwan]

Taiwan is democratic too, does it mean it's European? Should we accept them if they ask for the membership?



That's because you people are totally biased

By "culturally homogenous" I meant "without members not sharing European culture". Your misinterpretations or feeling are rather irrelevant.

Read the post before you comment. Taiwan is not in Europe, Turkey is. Turkey is both in Europe and democratic. Turkey has its equal share of european culture. Look at Istanbul, its roots are based deeply in european culture. The Hagia Sophia was originally a Cathedral don't forget, and all the other Roman/Byzantine/Greek heritage thats in Turkey. The ottomons were as much a part of european politics and intrigue for as any other european empire. Look at Turkey today, the only muslim country with a proper democracy, is it a fluke, or the european factor? You may have more in common with turkish people than you think. The only thing left to argue is the Muslim thing, something which gives me the impression, along with the armband thing, of Nazism.

I'm not by a lng shot calling you a Nazi though! It take far more than a tongue in cheek avatar and the opinion that the EU should be ''culturally homogenous'' to be a Nazi...

But surely you can see where people are getting the impression?

 

[Cato the Elder]

Winner, please, I know well enough that Poland isn't the only country in Central Europe. It's just that, there weren't any articles on how the "Czech Plumber" or "Slovenian Plumber" was going to take over all our jobs. (eventually, the Polish plumber didn't either, which is why the issue is now carefully ignored by all former anti-Polish EU membership activists)

And about Turkey, I wholly agree with Shekwan there. And really, the whole entire only Christian bit is still a bit strange. Islam and Christianity are pretty much the same religion anyway and so long as we don't have any theocracies joining us (sorry Vatican City, better luck next time) I really don't see the problem. After all there are tonnes of Muslims in Bosnia & Albania as well, why not deny them membership as well then?

 

[Pannonius]

Read the post before you comment. Taiwan is not in Europe, Turkey is. Turkey is both in Europe and democratic. Turkey has its equal share of european culture. Look at Istanbul, its roots are based deeply in european culture. The Hagia Sophia was originally a Cathedral don't forget, and all the other Roman/Byzantine/Greek heritage thats in Turkey. The ottomons were as much a part of european politics and intrigue for as any other european empire. Look at Turkey today, the only muslim country with a proper democracy, is it a fluke, or the european factor? You may have more in common with turkish people than you think. The only thing left to argue is the Muslim thing, something which gives me the impression, along with the armband thing, of Nazism.

I'm not by a lng shot calling you a Nazi though! It take far more than a tongue in cheek avatar and the opinion that the EU should be ''culturally homogenous'' to be a Nazi...

But surely you can see where people are getting the impression?

European heritage in present day Turkey isn't turkish at all. Don't tell me that the Hagia Sophia represents turkish culture.

 

[Pannonius]

Islam and Christianity are pretty much the same religion anyway

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