UNGY-01 Another spy attempt

[ungy]

Rusten:
The castles were as much for defense as anything else. If we did get attacked there's a good chance Monte (or someone else) would spend a whole lotta turns reducing. I started building them before QSH started on assembly line, and it didn't click for me that we would have to obsolete them to get assembly. In retrospect, I don't think they were worth it.

As for mercantilism--I disagree. We get a 20% discount for trade routes which is additive to our other discounts so it's actually a lot more. Eventually we'll want to be in FM since the AI tend that direction as well.

Given our variant, it's not so bad if one AI runs away a little bit--that'll let us steal tech that we can squash the others with and then we'll have so much land we can take out the leader easily.

I think you're right on Moai-- that was definately a mistake. It'll be less turns since we'll get some growth but that should be changed to Alemanni. Maybe after we pop a GP we should forget about Alemanni as a GP farm.

One thing I've noticed about SG's is that often nat wonders are not built
as people don't want to make the commitment--how often have you had a full slate of coastal cities and no Moai in 1550?

As for the comments--I play SG's to learn, and can't learn without criticism.
You in particular have a lot to offer, so please don't hold back.

 

[ungy]

Strategic plan: where do we go from here?

There's been a lot of talk about attacking Monte (some by me), but I wonder if it's really feasible. It's the AP I'm talking about. I don't think we can defy a resolution--won't we just keep getting it? The AI tend to vote to stop wars, but another question is whether he'll be able to get votes to return cities.

Another possibility: we could draft up a bunch of muskets and have a run at QSH. We could take the cities on our continent and call it a day.
Since he is now FR I don't think we can face an AP res to give back a city--can anyone confirm that?

Anyway I really think we need to come up with a longer term plan--we've been able to stay competitive in tech so far but we're coming up on a window of opportunity and need to figure out what to do with it.

 

[Rusten]

I don't think if sury attacks monty, his sod will ever see homelands again. I don't think sury has a real chance of winning culture. Having MM as a vassal makes Raggy more likely to attack and he pissed off QSH so he probabely went for those military techs to attack sury. We shouldn't be concerned about sury. There must be very much going wrong if we lose to him.

Agree that Suryavarman is no real threat.

I don't think Monty will attack us, he's annoyed at several others (pleased with us) and has galleons ready to invade by sea. Yet again, the possibility is there, so I will reinforce our border cities, but I doubt it'll happen.

Rusten:
The castles were as much for defense as anything else. If we did get attacked there's a good chance Monte (or someone else) would spend a whole lotta turns reducing. I started building them before QSH started on assembly line, and it didn't click for me that we would have to obsolete them to get assembly. In retrospect, I don't think they were worth it.

Building them in border cities is good, but not so much in Alemanni which was what I was aiming at in my post; cities never seeing battle getting castles.

As for mercantilism--I disagree. We get a 20% discount for trade routes which is additive to our other discounts so it's actually a lot more. Eventually we'll want to be in FM since the AI tend that direction as well.

Given our variant, it's not so bad if one AI runs away a little bit--that'll let us steal tech that we can squash the others with and then we'll have so much land we can take out the leader easily.

That's a good and valid point about the trade routes, but I still think mercantilism is better personally. The 1 free spy specialist in every city will make up for the 20% I think. We have 9 cities and each specialist was worth about 8 EP. That means we'll get ~70 more EP/t. While 2 or so of our cities lose their trade routes to QSH I think it's much much better as they're only like +/- 4 commerce each. Even our own cities could generate 2 commerce. Alemanni for instance gets 3+3+1 from trade routes to english cities, so the only thing to consider is the stealing discount, which I believe 70 EP/t (maybe 60-ish if we take loss of trade routes into consideration) makes up for (in addition to slowing down QSH somewhat).

It's true that a run-away AI could be good, but I think he's getting a little too far into the tech tree. If Sitting Bull was willing to open his borders trade routes would be good, but as we're only trading with QSH I feel it's a mistake.

One thing I've noticed about SG's is that often nat wonders are not built as people don't want to make the commitment--how often have you had a full slate of coastal cities and no Moai in 1550?

The part about National Wonders is true, but I rarely build the Moai Statues in my games if I don't have stone. It would have to be a very suitable city site for that to happen (which Alemanni perhaps is, so I'll start it there). I rarely play financial, so that's another reason I don't make MS, however it's pretty good in this game--agreed.

As for the comments--I play SG's to learn, and can't learn without criticism.
You in particular have a lot to offer, so please don't hold back.

Same here, I play for good discussion (happy to have gotten some after my previous post ). The strategy and tips forum always gets too general, in SGs one can go more in-depth with pros and cons.

 

[Rusten]

Strategic plan: where do we go from here?

There's been a lot of talk about attacking Monte (some by me), but I wonder if it's really feasible. It's the AP I'm talking about. I don't think we can defy a resolution--won't we just keep getting it? The AI tend to vote to stop wars, but another question is whether he'll be able to get votes to return cities.

Another possibility: we could draft up a bunch of muskets and have a run at QSH. We could take the cities on our continent and call it a day.
Since he is now FR I don't think we can face an AP res to give back a city--can anyone confirm that?

Anyway I really think we need to come up with a longer term plan--we've been able to stay competitive in tech so far but we're coming up on a window of opportunity and need to figure out what to do with it.

Agree, I'll wait a little playing my set until we make a long-term plan together. I kinda like the idea of going to war together with Monty as he's controlling the AP. So whomever he attacks, we might want to join in on the fun.

Since he is now FR I don't think we can face an AP res to give back a city--can anyone confirm that?

No idea

 

[pigswill]

It seems as if Monte and Sury are going to be sniping at each other for a while to come and the main beneficiary could well be Qin.

At some point we'll have to become active rather than hiding behind the parapet and hoping for the best, this will probably be when rifling becomes available.

Maybe we could consider allying ourselves with Sury against Monte. Do we know which city hold the AP? If we could capture it then we become resident which would give us control over resolutions.

Sounds like castles ain't the flavour of the month, fair enough.

 

[Rusten]

It seems as if Monte and Sury are going to be sniping at each other for a while to come and the main beneficiary could well be Qin.

Yes, at some point we're going to have to face QSH, so that's why I want to adopt mercantilism.

At some point we'll have to become active rather than hiding behind the parapet and hoping for the best, this will probably be when rifling becomes available.

Most definitely.

Maybe we could consider allying ourselves with Sury against Monte. Do we know which city hold the AP? If we could capture it then we become resident which would give us control over resolutions.

This on the other hand is a bad idea. Suryavarman will be a useless ally as he's currently focusing on culture. Whoever built the AP doesn't matter, it's the voted leader who decides. We would have to raze it, and the AP was built somewhere in Khmer lands wasn't it? I'll check next time I open the save.

 

[mystyfly]

The AP has been built by sury.
I wonder whether you overestimate the power of the AP in this war. I think we'll be able to take quite some cities from monty until the AP vote comes up. The more cities he loses (and we gain) the more power we get (and monty loses). We don't necessarly need to defy a peace vote, we should just hope we don't get dogpiled via AP.

If we dow monty while he's at war with sury we may take his cities before his sod arrives back home. We'll be able to watch monty's sod closely as we have city visibility.

If we can build/draft some more muskets we can upgrade, our pinch redcoats should be pretty strong so we shouldn't be afraid of facing monty.

 

[shyuhe]

The only problem of piggybacking on Monty's war efforts are that we'll need galleons to ship units around. Even if the distance between the two islands is minimal (2 turns to the nearest Khmer city), it's still going to take quite a number of boats to shuttle the troops back and forth. That and we can't bribe QSH to war and he's cautious with us so it's a little difficult diplomatically.

QSH has buddhist cities in his empire so he will still be able to vote for resolutions. However his votes only count 1/2 (or rather, your votes count double if you have the AP state religion as your state religion). I don't know how the other leaders will vote on returning cities - and at this point, don't we want to keep those QSH cities on our continent so that we can continue to steal techs easily? They're pretty close, don't require boats to access, and he's emerging as the tech leader of the game.

 

[shyuhe]

The AP has been built by sury.
I wonder whether you overestimate the power of the AP in this war. I think we'll be able to take quite some cities from monty until the AP vote comes up. The more cities he loses (and we gain) the more power we get (and monty loses). We don't necessarly need to defy a peace vote, we should just hope we don't get dogpiled via AP.

We can't get dogpiled via the AP as we are not a heathen. You can only use that resolution against civs that have no cities with the AP religion. The peace resolution can be a pain in the butt to work around - but that's what the culture slider is for

If we dow monty while he's at war with sury we may take his cities before his sod arrives back home. We'll be able to watch monty's sod closely as we have city visibility.

If Monty declares on Survy, I think it's better to backstab Monty once his sod heads off. He has some pretty good land and it will help solidify our holdings.

If we can build/draft some more muskets we can upgrade, our pinch redcoats should be pretty strong so we shouldn't be afraid of facing monty.

Drafting muskets and upgrading them to redcoats sounds good. We have a fairly large reserve of cash right now - but this is contingent on the AI teching rifling reasonably soon

 

[ungy]

what do you guys think of taking a bite out of QSH before he gets rifling?

I'm pretty sure we could draft up an army of muskets and take the 2 cities on our lands. If he wouldn't then take peace I'm sure we can hold him off until he does--if he gets infantry we get redcoats, and the AI is poor at using infantry on offense.

That could be our last chance until the modern era as protective infantry is not too attractive a target. Also if we're going to give up trading with him then we don't really care too much about the diplo hit.

On the other hand, he leaves us a couple of close cities that don't have espionage defense yet--good stealing.

I'm not sure it's the right move, just that it seems like its a now or much later thing so we should give it some consideration.

 

[ungy]

The part about National Wonders is true, but I rarely build the Moai Statues in my games if I don't have stone. It would have to be a very suitable city site for that to happen (which Alemanni perhaps is, so I'll start it there). I rarely play financial, so that's another reason I don't make MS, however it's pretty good in this game--agreed.

Seems like I've lately been combining it with the Globe--I also rarely play financial but I often seem to have a coast city with a couple of food --seems like those are good to whip down with the globe and the Moai gets built with whip overflow then the Moai helps get the Globe up.

 

[mystyfly]

I still prefer attacking monty, mainly for

On the other hand, he leaves us a couple of close cities that don't have espionage defense yet--good stealing.

this reason. When we have to face QSH, we can use infantry as well, with the free pinch promotion we get on our muskets. As we're going for space, we don't have to fight QSH that long, we can 'liberate' the aztec cities and attach them to our empire, which should leave us with enought land. We'll be able to fiel enought units to take those two cities sometime later I think.

 

[ungy]

As for other expansion, I think Monte should be pretty easy other than the AP. We should track the AP votes--we've had one vote so far. I think it's 4 votes every 8 turns which should be pretty good timing for us--if we hit him with a DOW the turn after the last vote of the 4, we can take a few cities and given his relations with Sury likely get the AP ourselves on the next vote.

As for defying, we can do that--I think we also lose the hammers for a while but not sure. I wouldn't be worried about his SOD--I actually like engaging the SOD if we have a rifle advantage--it gets rid of their units with very few losses and then we don't have to worry about later upgrades.

I think Sury basically took himself out of this game--we can take him out well before he can get cultural. I've not seen the AI do the culture pump like that this early and I don't think I've seen them take it all the way up like that.

I actually think our chances look pretty good.

 

[Rusten]

what do you guys think of taking a bite out of QSH before he gets rifling?

Me likes!

 

[Rusten]

Part 1 of my turns, thought I'd take a pause to let people in on the fun.

I make the switch to mercantilism and as you can see it has had no negative effect on our economy. QSH now as an eta of 8 turns for assembly line, and this is a couple of turns later than last time (when he had 7).

We're lacking happiness resources so I make a trade with Mansa Musa (I also saw that some of our cities lacked theatres, going to make those asap).

Shortly after we steal military tradition from QSH.

However, 2 turns into my set:

Sweet, this will be fun! This game has been too passive, now it's time to unleash your inner warmonger. Monty doing what he does best, acting irrational and attacking his friends.

His SoD (not too impressive, don't worry I won't lose the city):

I'll whip 2 pikemen and draft some muskets by the time his bigger stack can attack. The question is what we're going to do afterwards, which is why I stopped. Do we want to sue for peace and wait for rifling or start the war and keep at it for a while (only to launch the major offense with rifling).

PS: Really happy I didn't make the switch to emancipation.

Edit: The SoD is the one on the corn, the others are 1-2 units.

 

[ungy]

Rusten: If I remember the AP voting correctly (no guarantee), it's every 8 turns and 4 votes then a vote for AP leader. Monte got the AP, then in 1555 we voted , 1595 was nothing, there should be another one coming up soon.

I'd be in favor of continuing the war--seems like we have to hold off and likely destroy the SOD anyway then it should be pretty easy pickings after that if we have redcoats. However, if we can get an AP stop it's probably worth it as we can always resume at a time of our choosing.

My point on the AP is that we may be able to scoop the AP by the time we go on offense , then take enough that we can keep control of it the rest of the game. Maybe build a missionary or two if that helps--Monte is not too popular and he and us will be the candidates.

I would not steal assembly line--I actually think we're better off with redcoats vs. LB and knights/cur.

 

[Rusten]

I would not steal assembly line--I actually think we're better off with redcoats vs. LB and knights/cur.

Agreed. I was thinking the same earlier, that's why I stole military tradition instead of steam power. Assembly line and leevees will have to wait. I just hope QSH techs rifling next. I think that's very likely though, last time I saw an AI go straight to assembly line it picked rifling as next tech.

Scooping the AP would be awesome.

 

[Gr8scott]

What happens to the AP leadership if the current head of the AP changes his religion??? Could you guys use espionage in this way somehow to help mitigate the AP issues? Perhaps even lower the voting power of a member by changing his religion as well?

GS

 

[mystyfly]

@gr8scott:
Having the AP-religion as state religion doubles your votes. If we switch monty he'll lose many votes but the timing must work, we must know exactly when the vote comes up.

@game:
We should wait until monty sacrifices his sod on one of our cities. This will lower his power graph considerabely so he's less likely to attack us anymore before we dow him. He'll try to rebuild an army again (of outdated units) and will be busy.

What happened to sury's ships? In case he DOWs us (I don't think so) we're in real trouble. If he attacks monty, we'll be able to get peace cheaper.

 

[Rusten]

Suryavarman hasn't got enough on his hands anymore and is aiming for a cultural win. He won't be attacking us.