UNGY-01 Another spy attempt

[shyuhe]

SM opens up physics and biology, both great techs. So I think we should go ahead and steal it. Is everybody still in mercantilism? If so, I'm going to go SM first instead of economics -- corporation.

Got it, will play later today.

 

[Morganknight]

Well, please accept my apologies on all counts for what appear, after reading your post, to be very noob mistakes. This entire game has been a great learning experience for me. The only thing I feel like a real dumbass about is playing 20 turns. I couldn't remember how long we had and was not about to read through 14 pages of notes (I quit after about 4). Somewhere though, I got the mistaken impression it was 20. Again, please accept my apologies. I said I was nervous about making mistakes, but like I tell my employees, mistakes are how you learn, and shouldn't be held against you, as long as you don't make the same mistake more than once.

Hopefully, my errors are not irrecoverable. We have Monty on the ropes.

Please, if this is the right forum for it, explain your views on Flank II as the first promotions for Cavalry. When I first played Civ IV, I always gave my cavalry combat promotions to increase their raw power, but came to realize that their longevity was greatly increased with flanking, becoming effectively a second source of collateral damage, when they were unable to kill the units they attacked.

And as far as promoting the cannons the way I did, it was my understanding that we were going to be using our spies to incite revolt and that our cannons would be mainly to cause collateral damage. Please feel free to build more. I have found you can always use another.

 

[ungy]

Morganknight--NP it is just a game after all and I am mostly here for discussion and to learn something and I'm glad others are learning too.

As for the flanking, I'm not an expert on this by any means but I do remember a strategy article a while ago that argued the point.
Basically with the units we're facing now, we'll often want a cav to defend--so then it needs combat big time. Also if the battle is at all close, then the increased retreat chance is in large part nullified by the higher chance of winning with combat. If there are tough defenders, unless it's only one or two its better to use cannon. Also the flanking strat involves more healing, etc. and requires more units. The combat units also do more damage in losing situations.

As for the cannon, CR2 cannon are hardly suicide units at this point, whereas the barrage ones are. The same point about needing a closer battle to damage the top defender also applies--there is a big difference between a 5% battle and a 1% battle in terms of how much damage you do.

As for taking down walls with spies--they can fail, die, etc and its not that cheap. So a good thing to do sometimes when it speeds things up but unless its really late and you flood the enemy with them not a certainty.

Anyway we're in good shape I think

 

[shyuhe]

Quite a fun round I managed to steal 7 techs in 10 turns And 6 were from Qin. The power of the EE!

IT: I burn two spies trying to steal RR. The third spy finally succeeds. I start the drafting fun.

261 - AP residency vote comes up. I vote for myself. I also steal SM from Ragnar. I don't think monasteries are that helpful at this point - we need the SM enabled techs soon. However judging from the other techs I stole this set, I probably could have waited on it.... oh well.

262 - Nobody wins the AP vote. Oh well, at least it won't stop our war efforts.

263 - I capture Teotihuacan. I also bribe Ragnar against Survy + MM for RR. Survy had enough on his hands and I didn't want him interrupting us (or going after Monty). This will clean the slate and we should be able to bribe peace at a later time.

266 - I buy Survy's maps to see how many cities Monty has left. There are quite a few left on this continent....

Turn 267 - I steal physics (I think Qin)

Turn 268 - I steal economics and corporation (Qin)

Turn 269 - A useless event. Of course we want the war to continue!

Turn 270 - I steal AL and facism. Tlateloco also falls. Ragnar also wants help (politely declined):

Somewhere in here, I also captured Aztecapulco (I forgot to write down the turn #).

Current tech shot:

Current diplo:

Monty's peace deal:

I changed my spy tactics during my set. Instead of spreading them out, I concentrated them all in one city. Qin has security bureaus in each city now so I first concentrated the spies on destroying that. After that was destroyed, I went on a stealing spree. It makes a big difference on success - about 20%, and it also costs 50% more to perform espionage missions in a city with a security bureau. So I think we should swarm spies from here on out. Our relations with Qin will sour soon but we can just swarm the 2 cities he has on our continent (man are they useful!). Just make sure you wreck the security bureau before attempting to steal (and try to steal more than one tech in a turn!).

MM is about to lose his last big city. I think we may want to broker peace between Ragnar and Survy. Ragnar is still slightly ahead in power but Survy is rapidly gaining. I think if the war continues, Survy will start to take the ex-Malinese cities back from Ragnar (as he hasn't burned his SoD yet). I'm pretty ambivalent about letting the war continue as I imagine Survy won't take peace since Ragnar isn't inflicting any losses on him yet.

I also got 2 GG's and a GSpy during my set. I used one GG on a medic 3 cavalry (not much better lying around...). The other GG is sitting outside of London as he just spawned this turn. I saved the GSpy because I figured we'll need to change civics soon. We can burn him for a GA and adopt police state + emancipation. In 5 turns, we can change back to slavery (if you want to pop rush the newer cities) and/or US. Although I think it'll be more fun to go on the war path and just stay in police state the rest of the game... We should also build Mount Rushmore ASAP. It'll help cut down on the WW significantly (which is pretty big right now).

The other alternative is to take the Monty peace deal and nab his city. After 10 turns of healing/regrouping our units (there's one sod and a few mini stacks running around as Monty is in turtle mode), we can re-declare and wipe him off of our continent and probably capitulate him. If he doesn't capitulate, we can build some transports and finish him off - we'll need those boats eventually anyways.

I would prefer continuing the war right now and just finishing Monty off before he does a stupid vassalization to somebody else. Oh and make sure we keep our power higher than Qin so that Monty doesn't go begging for protection... I've also redirected all of our EP to Qin, while occasionally adding EP to the other civs to check out what they're researching. Qin and Ragnar are the only ones teching now in this game so we should just keep enough EP with the others to keep tabs on them.

@Morganknight - don't worry about mistakes, SG's are all about learning! I prefer combat 1 + pinch cavalry because I use them for stack protectors in this age. They have terrible odds against rifles in cities and in the open. Plus you want to protect your stacks from cannons and cavalry are the best at that in this era. Flanking allows you to penetrate more damage but I think combat pays off more in the long run - losing units causes lots of WW pre-police state so I try to minimize unit losses by using high strength units instead of withdrawing units.

I also prefer CR2 cannons over barrage 2 cannons... I burned most of the barrage 2 cannons as they just can't survive attacking a CG2 rifle (with 0 culture). CR2 cannons have a decent odds of surviving and will deal more damage to the tough defenders. Making all barrage 2 cannons is a little extreme - I'd stay with a 1:2 ratio of barrage:CR cannons as barrage really doesn't add that much splash damage if I recall.

 

[Rusten]

Keep up the war no doubt. I mentioned it earlier in the thread but I can repeat it; it's really good to vassal an AI on a different landmass because you get good trade routes even in mercantilism. It's especially good in this game as the other AIs are on their own connected landmass (they get a lot of trade from our cities if we go free market, it would not be worth it). If we bribe Monty into mercantilism after he's our vassal we'll be the only ones with overseas trade routes (even in mercantilism). Take all of his cities on this continent please; we'll be in really good shape then.

 

[ungy]

Great going Shuyhe!

I agree with keeping up the war until we own our continent.
Our only risk is Monte vassaling to Qin--I think once we replenish our EP's stealing combustion should be our top priority and getting some navy built.

I think it should be smooth sailing from here if we can take the continent and vassal Monte.

Roster:
ungy
Rusten
Morganknight
shyuhe: Just played
pigswill: UP
mystyfly: on deck

 

[shyuhe]

oh and please draft in Warwick. I forgot to do so this turn.

 

[pigswill]

Got it.

Won't have time to play until Sunday.

 

[ungy]

u there pigswill?

 

[pigswill]

I'm here. Been kind of busy. Should get it played and posted tonight.

 

[pigswill]

Played 7 turns up to 1814. Seemed a natural place to stop.

Built units in our established cities. Whipped culture in cities-coming-out-of-revolt. Drafted in Warwick.

1804. Ragnar asks us to cancel deals with Mansa. No.

1806.
Steal combustion.We must have a city built on oil coz destroyers are available.
Lose 5 rifles and capture Coax...city.
Whip Stock Exchange in Teno.

1810.
Spy caught in Chengdu.
Mansa cancels current trades.

1812.
Spy caught in Chengdu.
Capture Tzintzin.
CaptureTloacopan (lose 8 cavalry v 60% def coz city revolt fails).

1814.
Ragnar captures Djenne.
Spy caught in China.
Spy caught in China.
Steal Biology.

We're now at -1 with Qin (+4 various, -5 spies caught).

We've got the continent but Monte won't capitulate.

Unhappiness is huge. We're about to watch cities starve.

Not many techs to steal:

Espionage has not been very succesful. Been running culture 20% to reduce misery, running cash 30% to break even. Maybe espionage and war-weariness don't go together very well.

If we want to wipe out/capitulate Monte then we're going to need a fleet. Time for some decisions.

 

[shyuhe]

Why didn't you burn the Gspy for a GA to change to police state And we need to build spies to replace the ones that we lost. We need to concentrate spies on one city because we will need to have them squat in a city that doesn't have a security bureau.

I would also continue the war with Monty. Just build a few transports - we shouldn't need to inflict much more damage to capitulate him. I don't think it's worth stopping the war at this point but we should just use police state.

 

[pigswill]

Good point re police state. I've started building some navy. However I've already played seven turns out of ten so I think I'll hand over to the next player to do the invasion stuff.

There's only one worthwhile tech around at the moment so maybe we should forget active espionage until the war is over when we can increase the espionage slider and catch up on our 'research'.

 

[mystyfly]

Got it for ??? tomorrow evening probabely.

I think we should kill some random monty troops on the other island until he capitulates. Maybe raze / capture+gift back a city or three...

As there is nothing worthwile around to steal we can focus more on cash.

Are we heading for space? Seems to be best regarding our variant (most interesting) however as the AI seems to be teching horribly slow we might change our efforts on achieving DOM, ungy?

 

[ungy]

I think we should kill some random monty troops on the other island until he capitulates. Maybe raze / capture+gift back a city or three...

no point in razing is there? better just capture and gift back once he capitulates.

Are we heading for space? Seems to be best regarding our variant (most interesting) however as the AI seems to be teching horribly slow we might change our efforts on achieving DOM, ungy?

I'd rather stick with space--I'm curious about the late tech stealing.
I think we're in good shape here for either tho.

Definately continue war--I don't think it should be much longer.

 

[mystyfly]

Played 1814AD - 1828AD (7 turns)

(0) 1814AD
Upgrade our Galleons to Transports
Beg 70g from SB
Stumble upon some GPs (GSpy + GG). Why aren't they in a city (London) where I find them??
Whip some buildings in ex-aztec
Start a GA from the GSpy
Switch to Police State/Emancipation/Pacifism (reasons below)
(un)Happiness pre/post civic switch. Note: s/s before the switch is with drama @ 40%, second is with 0%

London is put on GP-duty

(1) 1816AD
Start Wall Street @ Teno (buddh shrine netting ~40g unmodified atm)

(2) 1818AD
Settle GG in York (Drydock and pretty decent production)

(3) 1820AD
GSpy born in London

IBT
SB demands Biology, I give in (considered the Power Graph... We don't really want trouble, do we?)

IBT
QSH wants us to adopt Buerocracy. Hell no: We don't want to give up nationhood/can't switch back during GA (3 turns left)/no chance for decent diplo with him anyway.

(6) 1826AD
Spy caught @ Djenne
Rag captures Walata (from Sury)
We get a GA @ Notts (now @ London with GSpy)
Land first stack of (8) units on hill near new monty cap Malinalco (2 inf 3 cannons 1 cav (medic) 4 rifle)

IBT
Monty counterattacks, no losses I think (can't check the log)
Sury cancels deal (some ressource for gold)
SB as well:

(7) 1828AD
capture Malinalco, Monty's finally not "doing fine on his own" anymore

---

civics

vic (to check sury's culture progress)

monty deal (note: he'd give his islam holy city (we don't want)

---

I don't really understand what the players before me did actually. Land troops look fine (thoug many more than needed) but no navy. And Destroyers queued up everywhere while monty only has frigates?? A transport is cheaper and will do just as good vs a frigate but is essential to finish Monty war (agree - WW is HUGE). Also I only find 3 spies but that's somewhat okay since there's nothing to steal, really.
I believe my move with the GA was the right one. We desperately needed that civics switch. Slavery we don't really need. Theo neither (we have our offensive force. All we'll have to do is to keep the AI from DOWing us and promos don't count to the powergraph anyway). US also isn't really nessecary. With emancipation and lots of WW gone we don't need the drama slider for happiness. I adopted pacifism as I think we should get 2 more GAs - 1 to get infra done in ex-aztec/speed up early ss parts and the second for the finish. We currently have 2 (different) GPs and need 3 more - quite doable. Now I don't understand that we don't have NE built yet.
To speed up our victory we can consider gifting big amounts of $$ to QSH. This guy is pretty slow imo (well he has a quite small empire). We'll easily get the EPs needed. BTW QSH techs Electricity now, yay!
A way to speed up QSH would be to take some khmer cities and gift to QSH. We also could vassalize QSH so we can make him research the techs we want. I also left some cash in the treasury so you could upgrade some redcoats (I don't know why you'd do this but still... :rolleye:
National wonders: I don't know where to put IW, for that I spent too few time playing but we should start it soon. We'll also want the FP somewhere in ex-aztec up soon. We could consider building the NP in London. There are 3 forests left = 3 specialists.
We should negotiate some more ressource deals.
I stopped now as there is 1 turn left of GA and we'lll want to switch civics (with monty war done). Ideas? I think Pac is not bad, probabely OR (considerabely more expensive thought), US, nationhood, emancipation?
I stopped at an uneven turn (I took over at turn 277, lol) and the next player should even it out (16 turns). It'll mostly be boring turns from now on.
Make sure you build more spies.

Save:
View attachment ungy-01 AD-1828.CivBeyondSwordSave

 

[shyuhe]

We should capitulate Monty (but we can't take techs). Then gift him back the city we took on his island. We have many more land units than we need because I think we all expected Monty to capitulate once we kicked him off our continent. But since we have so many troops, maybe we want to go intervene in the Khmer-Viking conflict? It'll spice things up and make sure that Ragnar doesn't grow too large.

I don't like pacifism really. We have lots of units running around that we don't really want to disband. OR isn't too useful at this point either though so either FR or theocracy get my vote. If we're going to continue warring, we might as well stay in police state as US won't be that useful. I think nationhood > any other civic at this point for our variant. Emancipation is fine too - we shouldn't be needing the whip any time soon.

We should also reassign the EP spending. Ragnar and Survy won't be teching very well any time soon - we should just keep enough EP to see what they're researching. Liberalism will also open up communism (state property), although we may want to stay in mercantilism to slow down the AI.

 

[mystyfly]

but we can't take techs

I know

I don't like pacifism really. We have lots of units running around that we don't really want to disband. OR isn't too useful at this point either though so either FR or theocracy get my vote. If we're going to continue warring, we might as well stay in police state as US won't be that useful. I think nationhood > any other civic at this point for our variant. Emancipation is fine too - we shouldn't be needing the whip any time soon.

None of the rel civics is really useful. Theo only if we REALLY build more units. Why not simply upgrade our existing ones to inf and crush whatever we want? It wouldn't be much of a problem me thinks. Agree OR is crappy here, as is FR imo (we need lib first).
Police state is okay, as US isn't that much of a blast.

We should also reassign the EP spending. Ragnar and Survy won't be teching very well any time soon - we should just keep enough EP to see what they're researching.

done (~weight 1 on sury to see research and ~15 on QSH). We can burn our existing EPs on lib from Rag I think

Liberalism will also open up communism (state property), although we may want to stay in mercantilism to slow down the AI.

imo merc > sp. not only for AI slowing down (we need a fast-teching QSH to finish this anytime soon so we should rather help him). I forgot to mention that I started workshopping ex-aztec to get some decent prod cities for ss parts. We'll want SP sometime I think however corps could be useful with many ressources (I didn't think about them earlier as I very rarely use them).

 

[pigswill]

@mystyfly. As the player before you I shall explain what I did. Before I played my set it had been assumed that once Monte was driven from our continent then he would automatically capitulate. It was also suggested that if we maintained/improved our power rating he would be more likely to capitulate to us.

I captured Monte's last three cities on our continent in seven turns. I built units everywhere to improve our power rating.

Having done this the plan fell apart because Monte did not automatically capitulate. Had he done so we would not have needed an invasion fleet. War Weariness would have vanished because the war was over so we would not have needed a GA to switch to police state.

While I am sure that another player could have captured the last three cities with fewer casualties I am fairly confident that fundamentally the problem did not lie in the execution of the plan but rather that the plan was based on a false assumption.

This was also the reason I stopped my set after seven turns because Plan A had failed.

I did not built destroyers in anticipation of invasion but to have a more modern navy to face future threats.

 

[ungy]

OK-I'll take it and use the latest order:

Roster:
Ungy: UP
Rusten: On deck
Morganknight
Shyuhe
Pigswill
Mystyfly:just played

I'll post some thoughts tonight