UNGY-01 Another spy attempt

[Rusten]

I don't see the point in temples--we'll have heavy spy attrition and critical need for hammers for military--and we've currently got the happy.

Maybe you're right, but I figured we could whip them out now as we've got enough happiness and get a higher cap for war weariness later. I don't like making so much military in advance without a plan as to who to attack (unless we agreed on QSH) as they cost so much upkeep. I usually whip them out over a short period of time instead, but there are many ways to go about. Your approach is probably better with a CE so we can skip the temples for now.

As for bribing Monte with Feudalism--my understanding is that you only get peace if you give the AI something they ask for--is that correct?

Nah, I noticed you thought we couldn't get peace with Monty as you used the "let's bury the hatchet what's the price for peace" thingie, but in my experience the AI will just ask for much more than it needs with that option. Offering a high-cost tech via the trade screen is almost always enough. This game it was alphabet instead of Nottingham.

It's the same thing concerning tech trades. If you use "what would make this trade work" you will get most possible, but if you use "what will you give me for this" the AI will try to rip you off.

Tech priority: currency, also we need to get to caravels so we can still send spies out if we lose OB. Otherwise we'll only be able to steal from Monte.

Maybe we should butter up QSH temporary. He was pleased last time I checked and with that city on our landmass we don't need open borders. We can postpone taking that city back at least until we get our hands on optics. Problem is of course that he's slow in techs. QSH is controlling the coast over to the other landmass, so as long as we keep our open borders with him we can continue to steal techs from the Khmer.

Feeling very noobish this game (this insight is good for me).

You speak my mind. But I try to contribute as much as I can.

Much better to come forth with ideas even if some aren't the best than to not come with any at all. Discussion is good, that's the whole point of these games, so don't be afraid of suggesting plans.

Is it worth swopping to vassalage? CG2 LBs could be useful, free unit maintenance likewise.

If we're going to revolt anyway then yes, but if we're waiting for a religion civic or bureacracy then I don't think so. Depends on what our goals are.

Edit:

I think this is possible but not that likely (especially as monty is rather crazy). We don't have OB with Monty (I assume) so he couldn't reach it anyway.

We have open borders with him, wanted to boost relations and allow him to spread buddhism to us to save hammers. We don't have any monasteries either.

 

[ungy]

Nah, I noticed you thought we couldn't get peace with Monty as you used the "let's bury the hatchet what's the price for peace" thingie, but in my experience the AI will just ask for much more than it needs with that option. Offering a high-cost tech via the trade screen is almost always enough. This game it was alphabet instead of Nottingham.

It's the same thing concerning tech trades. If you use "what would make this trade work" you will get most possible, but if you use "what will you give me for this" the AI will try to rip you off.

Yes I was aware that the AI asks for more than it will ultimately be willing to take--I do try and lowball it (of course you have to be prepared to do the deal).
So as for the bribe thing--do you just gift it outright or how do you do it so you end up with a peace treaty?

As for the units--we can always use spies and we'll have a high attrition rate there.

 

[ungy]

QSH is controlling the coast over to the other landmass, so as long as we keep our open borders with him we can continue to steal techs from the Khmer.

Actually we're OK as long as we have the Khmer--we can go directly to them w/o Qin. Don't know what the back looks like--maybe send a chariot over to scout around.

 

[Rusten]

I misunderstood you before, thought we were talking about the signing of peace. I understand what you mean now.

The feudalism bribe was suppose to forcing him into war with someone else. There's no way to get a 10-turn peace by just gifting techs unfortunately as you thought too (good for game balance though). I just wasn't aware that he could decide to attack us while we were in the peace treaty, so things didn't turn out the way I wanted them to by stealing feudalism. If he wouldn't be having too much on his hands we could send him vs QSH and the AI never attacks 2 people at the same time, that's coded.

If I had known that he could decide to attack us while we were in a peace treaty (are we sure about this though, anyone other than shyuhe having experienced this?) I'd wait signing peace until I had feudalism available and bribe him right away before he'd have time to decide anything.

edit (crosspost):

Actually we're OK as long as we have the Khmer--we can go directly to them w/o Qin. Don't know what the back looks like--maybe send a chariot over to scout around.

Yes, but the Khmer might close their borders soon (currently "annoyed" towards us) so we might need to keep them open with QSH in order to get to the other continent without going to war.

 

[shyuhe]

I had it happen a few days ago in my game for the neutered civ challenge (I haven' posted the relevant set yet). Alex was my neighbor and got WHEOOH even though I had a peace treaty with him. He declared on me the turn that the peace treaty expired. I think it's better to be safe than sorry - I'll try to get 2-3 LB (as they'll be useful in the long run anyways).

 

[ungy]

edit (crosspost): Yes, but the Khmer might close their borders soon (currently "annoyed" towards us) so we might need to keep them open with QSH in order to get to the other continent without going to war.

Agreed--and also important to get to the Khmer as we have our ep's with them.

We should also give some more thought to allocating our EPs--who we steal from determines a lot of the flow of the game. I think if possible we should try and stay on Monte's good side, so probably better to allocate to QSH.
I think the more distant civs we should skip for now.

 

[shyuhe]

I played a quiet 10 as I'm sleep deprived and I don't remember how long we're supposed to play. There didn't seem to be a consensus on attacking QSH and I was worried about Monty so I didn't declare during my set.

IT: I revolt to HR + vassalage. Vassalage will save us upkeep and we'll want HR eventually anyways. Our cities our tiny though we need to grow them larger!

Turn 132: The peace treaty with Monty expires but he's still busy with enough on his hands. If he were after us, he would have declared at this point but he hasn't. I think he's thinking of attacking MM (he's annoyed with him).

Turn 136 - I settle the GG in Nottingham. It looks to be our best production city for a while - however it needs a few more culture buildings as Monty is stealing some tiles.

Turn 137 - MM wants OB. You're hated by everybody dude. No way (Sitting Bull is the only AI not annoyed with MM). We also get an incredibly useless event:

Turn 140 - I steal currency from Khmer. It gives our economy an immediate lift. We should abuse boat spies as they're immune from detection Qin has also founded another city on our continent. It's not in the best location (just barely west of his first city on the coast). Survy is back up to cautious now as well. SB also comes asking for help and is declined:

I've started sending our stack eastwards towards Qin's two cities again. Now that we're fairly sure Monty isn't after us, I think we should think about taking those two cities (or at least the gem/sugar/fish). I've unfortunately sent the two swords north to deal with the barb city as Monty has a HA running around up there to grab the city as well. If we're going to attack Qin, I think we'll be able to take the two cities with what we have. We can use spies to reduce borders and he only has 3-4 total units for the 2 cities (I can see 1 LB + 1 sword and I imagine the new city has a LB as well). However if we decide to attack QSH, we nee to make sure we do it before the Khmer become pleased with QSH (which is unlikely anyways).

The tech screen:

 

[pigswill]

Got it.

Had a look. Problem with dowing on Qin is that if he intercepts our galley then no easy spying for us. Monte is indeed the only one with his hands full. Maybe Mansa, maybe us. We've got more cities than workers which is rarely a good thing.

My initial thought would be to go for a quiet set, maybe try pinching the last barb city up north, we'll have to see what Monte's HA does (or if reinforcements arrive). Otherwise build a worker or two in London, three spies should be enough for now if we don't lose them too quickly. Couple more LBs. Maybe try to clear some ivory for trade fodder. Try to steal maths perhaps to open up other stuff (and improve forest chopping).

Spies are invisible in boats in AI cities. Can't make up my mind if this is a smart trick or an exploit, its imho right on the border.

Awaiting comments and feedback.

 

[Rusten]

Agree with everything you said, that barb city has to be taken soon before someone beats us to it.

I don't like the boat thingie, think it's broken. Maybe they implemented it to encourage open borders and good relations with your theft target, but it's just too good imo. Whether we'll use it or not the majority can decide, I don't care either way.

I see from one of shyuhe's screens that Monty is 2 turns away from code of laws. If he's the only one having researched it we should risk -1 diplo in order to get our courthouses and spy specialists running. I'd steal CoL before mathematics, but both are important. Don't think we have that many EPs located on Monty, so you should arrange it asap.

 

[shyuhe]

We can get enough EP to steal CoL pretty easily. It's about the same cost as currency and currency was super cheap (around 300-400 after the 50% discount). Just reallocate all of our spending on Qin to Monty - we'll probably have enough by the time a spy gets to his city and sits there for 5 turns. Also, I was reading up on the spy mechanics and the chance of being discovered in hostile territory increases as you pile more spies into one tile. So we may want to spread the spies to 2-3 different cities as I think reducing the chance of being caught outweighs the benefits of the distance modifier. Keep this in mind as you move spies through enemy territory too (stagger the spies by 1 tile each while moving through). We can get math + aesthetics from Survy while we get CoL from Monty.

I would prefer to use boat spies given the settings of the game. If Monty weren't our neighbor, then I wouldn't mind banning them. However given how much warring we will probably end up doing, I doubt we'll be able to free up the hammers for lost spies.

 

[mystyfly]

We can get enough EP to steal CoL pretty easily. It's about the same cost as currency and currency was super cheap (around 300-400 after the 50% discount).

I believe a big factor in the EP-mission cost has been 'EP-Spending', meaning due to the spybomb, we had so many EPs on him which made the theft cheaper, so it might take some more time until we get enought EPs on Monty..

 

[Rusten]

If I remember correctly it doesn't matter how much you've got towards the one you're stealing from, it takes the total amount of ep's towards all players. It doesn't matter if we steal from Montezuma or the Khmer cost-wise. We will still get a discount for ep-spending.

 

[ungy]

I would prefer to use boat spies given the settings of the game. If Monty weren't our neighbor, then I wouldn't mind banning them. However given how much warring we will probably end up doing, I doubt we'll be able to free up the hammers for lost spies.

I think we should ban this. It seems to me a clear exploit--the game was designed such that spies would have a chance of detection.

We may very well lose this one, but let's avoid that one.

 

[ungy]

I played a quiet 10 as I'm sleep deprived and I don't remember how long we're supposed to play.

I think we should stick to 10 turn sets as we do have an unusual variant.

The good news is that the tech pace of the game is quite slow and that we have a decent amount of land.

We should send over a scout to map Qin's and Suly's lands while we still have OB.

It looks like Monte will do some of our work for us on the barb city but we should definately take it.

I agree about more workers.

I think we should steal COL from Monte--I don't think getting him to friendly is realistic so a chance of a -1 is not that big a deal.

I'd also build a few more LB--if we do get attacked at this point in the game he'll have a lot more units.

 

[pigswill]

Played one turn so far. Qin asked us to stop deals with Mansa, after seeing how unpopular MM is I agreed though we did lose 2 happy resources. Not a problem short term as we're more health capped than happy capped.

More to the point I found a settler wandering around the jungle. I've just looked through the thread and didn't see any plans for him/her. Any idea what do with him? Otherwise I'll just park him up in case he comes useful at some point.

 

[Rusten]

No idea what's up with that settler either. Maybe shyuhe wanted to claim the wheat with a city, but QSH settled there by now so there's nothing to do with it tbh. Do as you please with it.

Good call on Mansa Musa, happiness is ok atm. It won't be an issue after whipping markets/courthouses/forges either due to our incredible land. Forges will give 2 happy right off the bat and from markets we have at least ivory, can't remember the rest without looking at the save.

 

[shyuhe]

That's basically what happened. He was supposed to claim the land that QSH stole from us Since he was already built, I didn't see a reason to delete him.

 

[pigswill]

Ten peaceful turns up to 800ad.

620.
Qn asks us to cancel deals with MM. Agree. Lose dye and spice but we're ok for happy atm.
London spy>worker
York spy>worker
Hastings LB>LB
Settler gets parked in London.

640.
Monte adopts vassalage.

660. zzz

680. zzz

700.
Capture Alemanni without losses (wins at 68, 75 and 44). Keep the city and gain a worker.

720.
London's water supply has been poisoned! An aztec spy is caught nearby!! Coincidence? 'Revenge is a dish best served cold'.
York worker>galley
Notts granary >rax

740.
HG bidl.
Hastings LB>LB

760.
London worker>market
Steal Maths from Sury (280ep) undetected.

780. zzz

800.
Ragnar war v SB? Tempted but say no.
Warwick whips granary.

That's it. I sent a spy from London towards Monte, ten turns later its just crossed aztec borders. This has encouraged me to build a road network south of London connecting it to York and the jungles.

York has been building a galley to join our existing galley to eliminate the barb galley threatening our clams at Nottingham.

I've scrupulously unloaded spies from galleys. A spy has spent the last three turns in Harihilaya, could pinch aesthetix, construction or calendar.

A chariot is exploring Khmer/China:

The north is ours:

Monte still has enough on his hands. Both frontier cities have 2LB and spear with a small axestack in the middle.

I've currently divided eps between Monte, Sury and Qin:

Here's what they could pinch:

And the save's at the bottom:

 

[mystyfly]

Got it for a hopefully much better set somewhere this evening or tomorrow evening.

I think stealing Aest, constr and calendar.

I see Suryavar... is building the AP. Also, he has buddhism spread in his empire. Could we switch him to Buddhism the turn before he finishes the AP? This would give control of the AP and the hammer bonus to Monty or (and) us (more likely Monty) and deny it to the others.
But as soon as the khmer switch to another religion, will then instantly be another vote for the secretary? this would make it somehow rather more of a short-time slowdown on the khmer than a boost for us, as they spend some more turns in anarchy.

 

[Rusten]

10 great turns there pigswill (read: 10 more turns of Montezuma not attacking us )

I don't think we should bother stealing aesthetics. In a normal game with marble it would be an obvious move, but we can't build the Great Library anyway, so that part of the tech tree can be neglected for a while imo.

Between calendar and construction both are good. Construction would let us get some very useful elephants vs a possible attack by Montezuma while calendar would let us get that sugar near York online. Personally I'm leaning towards elephants because I really hate having to "trust" Montezuma, but either is fine. We would need horseback riding too though, if we plan to head for war elephants.

The khmer don't like us enough to even consider changing religion mystyfly. Also remember to steal CoL. I can't believe it's 800 AD already, we're so short in the tech tree, we'll have to steal our way towards bureaucracy as well pretty soon.

The Khmer are also 1 turn away from the Great Library, I don't like that at all, they're getting really powerful.