UNGY-04 Who do they think they are?

pigswill: the reason that workshops are better in my opinion for NEW cities, is that cottages will take 35 turns to mature in new cities, while workshops will provide instant hammer bonus and cost no food. If we were not planning to go to war I might have agreed with cottages, because they will be better in the long term with our civics, but we are planing a war, so instant production seems more important to me. if we workshop/watermill spam an inland city, it could produce units without rush buying, leaving our money to rush buy in cities with less production.

BTW, how much does rush buying cost? Is it 3 gold per hammer before kremlin and 2 gold per hammer after kremlin?
 
I agree with silverbullet that our new cities should be all tuned on hammers. Commerce we'll get via trade routes. And we'll be happy if we don't have to buy EVERY single unit but build some the old-fashionned way...
 
I don't see how we could have lost those units to those barbs. Oh well.
well take a look at the last save. All 3 units that were lost were damaged.
Don't know if it would have been possible to get the undamaged mace on the stack--that would have prevented the attack.

We must make sure we get to that barb city first. I'd still raze it as it's not coastal and there are several nice coastal spots, especially when settlers are already on the way.
We don't have to hurry too much. The AI is really lame at taking out overseas barb cities.
I would not raze it--it's a little late for that--and we're not too far from obsoleting the GLH.
 
How do we feel about bribing Tokugawa to make peace with Joao? With the new lowered capitulation threshold I'm always scared of being too late in stopping a war -- it has caused me unnecessary trouble in 3.17. If Joao loses another major city he might give in as I'm guessing Tokugawa has a lot of power (we lack EPs to read graphs though). Tokugawa is willing to stop the war for Education (and we receive 190 gold).
 
How do we feel about bribing Tokugawa to make peace with Joao? With the new lowered capitulation threshold I'm always scared of being too late in stopping a war -- it has caused me unnecessary trouble in 3.17. If Joao loses another major city he might give in as I'm guessing Tokugawa has a lot of power (we lack EPs to read graphs though). Tokugawa is willing to stop the war for Education (and we receive 190 gold).
I think that's worth it.
From my set Joao took a city but then lost Lisboa.
 
@silverbullet. Fair point on workshops v cottages in new cities.

Being the 'weakest' player on the team (relatively speaking) I'm not too sure about AI behaviour. I was wondering if Toku would accept peace if he thought he was close to vassalising Jo.

If we have low production in our existing cities and we don't have coal (and we're still some distance from it) do we really need Ironworks at this stage of the game?
 
Let's stop this war. Joao's land is ours :)
Giving Education to Toku is not a big risk. He will probably still prioritize units over universities and oxford, so it's hard to see him running ahead in tech. By the time we attack him, we will have production advantage so it's not too bad if we will be equal in tech (probably infantry/artillery cleanup).

pigswill: good point about the coal. We already decided to skip ironworks and go directly to the Kremlin, because it will take too long. It might have been worth it to build a palace in Mayapan to get 50% production bonus there for faster Kremlin, but we would have lost a lot of research that way, so perhaps it's better in Mutal with Oxford.
 
I start off by stopping the Toku-Joao war as suggested. If Joao were to lose Oporto he'd probably capitulate right away losing so much land.

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I didn't check when I took over the save, but the turn after (1480 AD) Shaka has enough on his hands again.

I re-arranged some tiles and put Mutal into (-2) starvation temporarily in order to speed up Oxford's University -- we'll probably want to fix that after it's completed.

We get a really nice event:

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For some reason Napoleon decides not to settle a city with his settler leaving the northern spot to us as well. :)

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Just when I was about to give up trading for banking (due to worst enemy everywhere) Shaka suddenly pops out of WFYABTA (he's not the WE of anyone) allowing me to give him philosophy and 65 gold for it.

We'll probably be able to take the barbarian city in a couple of turns. I decided to start an attack after the CG2 longbowmen left his post to kill Napoleon's maceman. Unfortunately our cannon lost at ~83% odds, so I had to attack this round (wanted to bombard with siege twice). However, the maceman was successful (70%) so it's still looking good. The attack resulted in 10 experience meaning a promotion next turn for additional health and attack. The longbowman 2SW of the city has 1.5 health left.

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Researched nationalism and constitution and traded for banking. Here's the current tech standings -- rep. parts and economics became available for trade just now. Constitution+gold for rep. parts with Charlemagne seems to be a good trade.

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I wouldn't trade with WK as he's clearly #1 (and worst enemy of Toku), but Charlemagne should be ok. Charlemagne is Shaka's worst enemy, but seeing as Shaka is in WHEOOH already it won't really matter. He's already decided to attack someone and if that's us again I don't care what he thinks of us -- he's got to die.
 

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I don't believe that's us. The AI sometimes declares wars overseas even without astronomy, and since he is pleased with us, it's more likely it's his worst enemy.
I am almost tempted to gift him astronomy so he can send all his troops to attack charlie, leaving his island for us, but I won't, since i am not 100% he is not after us.
 
Yes, I agree with this trade.
After democracy we should revolt immediately to universal suffrage. I am not sure about emancipation since most of our towns are mature anyway, but we don't have a lot of extra happy faces, so we might as well do it sooner rather than later.

The next tech we should pick is steam power - it will be a monopoly tech, so we might be able to trade it for something good.

Where should we settle next on the island? 1SW of oasis?
 
Who's up? If its me I'll probably be able to play Monday evening or Tuesday.
 
Thats the roste silverbullet posted after my set:

Mystyfly
Ungy
Rusten - just played
Silverbullet - UP NOW
Pigswill - on deck
Atropos - still away?
 
I can play today but I was hoping for some discussion.
My thoughts:
1) We should trade replaceable parts with Charlie

2) Should we revolt immediately after democracy? I would say yes for the town production bonus. Should we switch to emancipation as well in the process? or maybe caste system for workshops?

3) do you agree to tech steam power next?

BTW, I don't think we should expect Atropos back anytime soon. It has been more than a month since he said he would be away for 2 weeks, and I haven't seen him post anything on the forums.
 
I can play today but I was hoping for some discussion.
My thoughts:
1) We should trade replaceable parts with Charlie

2) Should we revolt immediately after democracy? I would say yes for the town production bonus. Should we switch to emancipation as well in the process? or maybe caste system for workshops?

3) do you agree to tech steam power next?

BTW, I don't think we should expect Atropos back anytime soon. It has been more than a month since he said he would be away for 2 weeks, and I haven't seen him post anything on the forums.
1) Yes
2) Yes to US -- dunno about the others. We'll probably need emancipation sooner or later so I'd go for that one.
3) Sure.

silverbullet said:
Where should we settle next on the island? 1SW of oasis?
if that's the spot picking up 2 fps+gold then yes.
 
I can play today but I was hoping for some discussion.
My thoughts:
1) We should trade replaceable parts with Charlie

2) Should we revolt immediately after democracy? I would say yes for the town production bonus. Should we switch to emancipation as well in the process? or maybe caste system for workshops?

3) do you agree to tech steam power next?

BTW, I don't think we should expect Atropos back anytime soon. It has been more than a month since he said he would be away for 2 weeks, and I haven't seen him post anything on the forums.
on the RP trade, I'd be inclined to put a turn in (maybe at reduced research) and try and trade just con for RP.

I'd take both emancipation and US--I don't think we have much whipping left anyway and we'll need it sooner or later.

Sorry to be AWOL--RL has been hectic.
 
Turn 214 - trade rep parts to charlie for constitution +300 gold. (Ungy - since we make more than 300 gold in 1 turn at 100% gold I didn't see the point of delaying this trade by 1 turn).

Turn 216 - WK is 1 turn away from liberalism.

Napoleon wants us to adopt representation, I refuse.

Turn 218 - WK chooses to research radio next, the kremlin seems safe.

Democracy is in. I decide to revolt to US only, since adding another change will add another turn to the revolution, so we can do it later.

Turn 219 - we get an awful event in Mutal - a riverside town is destroyed to the ground.

I detour to music for 1 turn to help pop culture in our new cities.

Situation with Shaka is getting dangerous - he has astronomy and cuirassiers. I hope he is after his worst enemy and not us.

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WK will trade rifling for steel+90 gold. Charlie will not trade rifling and the rest are far away from it, so I decide to make the trade with WK.

Turn 221 Oxford done. We finally capture phoneician. The barbarians were kind to leave a forge and a granary in the city. They even prepared a flood plain town for us.

Shaka has 4 caravels and 2 galleons in our territory. I noticed 6 more galleons resting in Ndondakusuka.

I switch coastal cities to spend 1 turn into riflemen for a more efficient emergency whipping.

Turn 222 - joao demands chemistry, I refuse. I trade him clams for 8 gold, now that I know it doesn't cause penalties.

Charlie demands that we cancel our deals with japan. I agree.

Shaka's ships are going away from our border towards south of his territory. I am not sure what he is doing.

Turn 223 - Shaka's ships are back in our territory.

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I decide to keep cash reserves at around 400 gold for emergency upgrades.

Shaka has chemistry now, I expect to see some frigates soon.

Turn 224 - we get a nice event:

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Shaka seems to be going for us after all. Kremlin seems quite safe now. I guess the general plan should be to defend the initial invatsion, buildup army and invade.

Tech status:
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Steam power is 1 turn away.

We can trade for economics now with both napoleon and Charlie, or we can decide to self research it later, as it is relatively cheap now.

I think we need to discuss our plan going forward. If we are going to war now, I think we have 2 potential tech paths:

1) trade for economics, research corporation->assembly line (13 turns)
2) Research physics->artillery (14 turns)

I am inclined towards artillery, because we don't obsolete the GLH this way, but it's not a big difference now. Most of the world is in mercantilism anyway now, and Shaka is one of our main sources of trade routes, so we won't lose much by losing 1 trade route per coastal city.


If we attack Shaka Ulundi needs to be our 1st or 2nd city, as it has the Statue of Zeus.
 

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Interesting.

Some initial thoughts:

Pre-Kremlin it's cheaper to upgrade than rushbuy (25+2*hammer difference iirc (on normal speed)).

Last time Shaka brought stacks into our territory he confounded our expectations by declaring on us (his best friends) so forewarned is forearmed.

We don't need steam-power this turn so we could spend a turn or two at 100% cash (c550 gpt) to upgrade units in the immediate vicinity.

After steam-power a third tech path is railroad-combustion.
 
I don't think railroad is the way to go here. We need war technologies now.
As for upgrades, in which city did you think about upgrading? Uxtmal doesn't need upgrades yet because longbows on hills are still pretty difficult to shaka's cuirassiers, so he will not attack amphibiously, giving us at least 1 turn to respond once he lands.
Our southern coastal cities need at least 1 additional units each because there is a danger he will attack amphibiously from his 2 galleons. I would send our new riflemen to those cities. Luckily he limits his galleons to 3 moves per turn because they are accompanied by caravels, so this gives us more time.

I think it's reasonable to upgrade the lone holkan defenders there, but I wouldn't do mass upgrades yet.

Also, there is a riflemen in the queue of each of the southern coastal cities. We can whip it for 3 or 4 population if he lands there.
 
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