UNGY-04 Who do they think they are?

[Rusten]

Do you think a conquest or domination win is possible under these settings?

Normal speed (non-pangea) will make it very hard. On marathon it could be done I'm sure. It might be possible on normal too with a good starting position, but the odds aren't convincing.

I am curious to examine the usefulness of vassals. If we get an early production/technology advantage we could vassals someone close, and then use them as allies in other wars.
Or maybe that is not possible because they will break free once they have more land/population than us?

Me too, I use vassals a lot. However, I think you're right about size being a big problem, it probably won't work unless we add a lot of extra AIs to cramp up the map (which kinda negates the point of a 3CC).

 

[Rusten]

How about a game banning the construction of commerce multipliers? We can still get granary/barracks and such but not library/academy/university/bank/etc (unless it's captured).

In such a scenario it can be very worthwhile to build up a good vassal to do some research for us.

 

[silverbullet]

How about a game banning the construction of commerce multipliers? We can still get granary/barracks and such but not library/academy/university/bank/etc (unless it's captured).

In such a scenario it can be very worthwhile to build up a good vassal to do some research for us.

I like it.
It will be a huge contrast from last game, since we will be forced to rely on a lot of early bulbing and trading. Caste system becomes very important since there is no other way to get scientists, and cottages are important too, since there is no other way for early commerce.

Late game probably a production economy would be best. forge/factory/coal plant and build research or money.

Espionage economy is also very tempting, unless we forbid espionage multipliers as well.

I think Ramesses would be a good leader for that. Pyramids+priests+other wonders (great library, Angkor Wat) may help compensate for lack of libraries early and war chariots can be a great advantage for a good early start.

Spiritual will help diplomacy and running caste system to get great scientists.

Even if we don't get to have a friendly vassal, it will be interesting to explore a production/espionage economy.

 

[Rusten]

Justinian is a worthy candidate as well. We won't suffer as much from lowering the science slider so the UB can be used for happiness. The UU is pretty good as well. Not as good as WCs, but we won't have to do an early rush to use it.

 

[pigswill]

We've done espionage already. We could go for a religious economy, only priests and Prophets allowed, no other specialists. No religious victory (though AP is allowed for the hammers).

 

[silverbullet]

Religious economy? Would that also ban wonders that give GPP points to scientists/engineers/etc? It could be really hard to run a priest economy without pyramids to boost research (unless of course we run a lot of cottages like last game, and I want something different).

I prefer disallowing multiplier buildings over disallowing certain specialists. If we don't like EE, we can ban espionage multiplier buildings as well (courthouse would still be allowed, but not jails/IA/SB/Scotland).

 

[ungy]

I like banning the commerce multiplier buildings--that seems interesting.

I would still allow the harbor+ forge I think.

As for leader, not sure. I'm OK with any that doesn't have a strong early UU--don't want the easy rush.

 

[silverbullet]

I like banning the commerce multiplier buildings--that seems interesting.

I would still allow the harbor+ forge I think.

As for leader, not sure. I'm OK with any that doesn't have a strong early UU--don't want the easy rush.

I agree. Forge is not really a commerce multiplier unless we are playing mansa.
Late game with enough cities, workshops and factories/forges/coal plant/caste/state property we could have a nice hammer economy. The problem would be getting there on time with no initial commerce multipliers, which makes the balance of bulbing/teching/warring/expansion/trading more tricky than usual.

What about monasteries? If they are not allowed and libraries are not allowed, we will have culture border problems. It's good to have a spiritual leader to have 1/2 price temples for some culture and to have org. religion to build missionaries.

 

[mystyfly]

I like the no (commerce) multiplier idea. But we have to be precise which buildings to ban. I'd like to only ban science and gold multipliers and keep the production multiplier buildings.

I agree with ungy against eary rush. Now, leader... Since we'll likely rely on mids heavily an Ind leader might be nice... My suggestions: Bismarck/Louis/FDR.

 

[silverbullet]

I like the no (commerce) multiplier idea. But we have to be precise which buildings to ban. I'd like to only ban science and gold multipliers and keep the production multiplier buildings.

I agree with ungy against eary rush. Now, leader... Since we'll likely rely on mids heavily an Ind leader might be nice... My suggestions: Bismarck/Louis/FDR.

If we don't ban Scotland yard/jails/intelligence agencies/security bureaus, we can still have a very powerful espionage economy as an option.
You might not want that because you have already had an espionage game. I don't mind though because I didn't participate in it

 

[Rusten]

Forge would be allowed for sure. I would allow harbor as well as that just adds to commerce itself -- not science/wealth/espionage/culture. By the same token I don't see any problem with bureaucracy. I just mentioned some random buildings as examples -- not limiting our options to granary/barracks. Courthouse/aqueduct and a lot more I can't remember would be allowed as well.

Technically culture/espionage is commerce as well so that would go against the variant. If we are to allow SY/jails it would have to be exceptions. We would be allowed to get for instance security bureaus as that's just raw espionage -- not a multiplier. Same thing goes for theatre/representation/courthouse -- they add "raw commerce".

In short everything that would be affected by the slider in efficiency is out.

We could still use espionage via Gspy infiltration and courthouses/Sec.Bureau EPs, but +% buildings are out.

 

[silverbullet]

I agree with ungy against eary rush. Now, leader... Since we'll likely rely on mids heavily an Ind leader might be nice... My suggestions: Bismarck/Louis/FDR.

I think we will really need either the spiritual trait for this one to work. With no science multipliers and no espionage multipliers, the only way I can see to keep up in tech early game is bulbing and trading.
Since libraries are not allowed, the only ways to get GS (the best bulbers in terms of number of beakers) are great library and caste system.
Switching in and out of caste system is going to be costly for a non-spiritual.

I actually don't think the pyramids would be very important here. GLH would bring us much more commerce, but we could also just focus on grabbing land/production/military.
We are likely to make wars in tech parity or tech disadvantage with this variant so extra production helps.

I picked Rameses mainly for his traits and UB, not for WC . If we don't like to rely on an early rush we can just ban it, or we could pick another leader.
Gandhi? Isabella? Justinian?

 

[pigswill]

No Glib without a library. Pyramids with rep and caste in an option worth considering as is a trade route economy.

 

[Rusten]

No NE either, so spiritual with Caste/pacifism cycles is very favourable. I don't see IND making a big difference, but then again I'm no fan of the trait in general. The only way to get the GL would be to capture an enemy city with the library intact (not something I'd gamble on this early ) -- but it can be done with the NE later. There is another way too, but that one is just as risky and I'll bring it up later instead.

It's probably best to skip the aesthetics path completely and head for CoL or MC (possibly via Oracle) instead. However, where to go (and how) can't be decided until we roll a map.

 

[silverbullet]

Rusten, as far as I know you cannot capture a library. Buildings that produce culture are always automatically destroyed (unless they are wonders, in which case they just stop producing culture)

 

[Rusten]

Right, I forgot about that. I guess we'll just have to gift cities to vassals and wait for them to make a library and then demand it back.

Taking cities with culture could work. IIRC buildings don't get destroyed then (at least not national wonders).

 

[mystyfly]

AFAIK:
All wonders stay intact if the city is captured but they don't produce culture anymore (so the library would be destroyed but the GL would remain intact I think).
National wonders always get destroyed, no matter whether you get the city with force or via culture.

Ramsses sounds good but also justinian and isabella sound interesting. I like the MM with GP and whipping cycles to get the most out of our cities. What about izzy with her uber-siege or conquisdators (however you spell it...)?

 

[mystyfly]

AFAIK:
All wonders stay intact if the city is captured but they don't produce culture anymore (so the library would be destroyed but the GL would remain intact I think).
National wonders always get destroyed, no matter whether you get the city with force or via culture.

Ramsses sounds good but also justinian and isabella sound interesting. I like the MM with GP and whipping cycles to get the most out of our cities. What about izzy with her uber-siege or conquisdators (however you spell it...)?

 

[ungy]

I'm OK with any spiritual leader--I think that's a must have trait for us.
I'd prefer Iz or Justinian to Ramesses--interesting UU and UB for both.

 

[Rusten]

Can't use Izzy UB (25% to espionage) so my vote is for Justinian.

Seems we've decided which variant to go for so might as well get the new thread going.

National wonders always get destroyed, no matter whether you get the city with force or via culture.

Think this is wrong -- I'm pretty sure I read somewhere that national wonders don't get destroyed when culture flipped.