UNGY6 The health nuts

[Dirk1302]

New attempt at a dot. I'm in a hurry so maybe i missed something.

Joao has maxwarrand 200, that is pretty high so basically not that aggressive. OTH he has a small empire on a high level which increases dow risk. We need to get him to pleased in the future, gifting a tech seems ok to me, religion may take a while.

Aest-> lit seems ok to me, wait until we have some libs.

Astro doesn't look good anymore, normal lib race, we'll win it i think.

In other words i agree with you both, also on building 1 (or maybe 2) extra settler(s).

 

[SnowlyWhite]

and this brings the other question:

if all the spots with fresh water are too close to another city, are we allowed to settle without fresh water, or are we supposed to simply not settle the city?

i.e. - the spot 1e of the dye is 1 tile away from fresh water; on the other hand, the game wouldn't allow us to settle near fresh water in this case due to novgorod bein' to close. Can we settle there, or should we move further south to be 2 tiles away from fresh water?

and to prevent further confusions: if we capture a city not placed by our rules, we have to raze it or not?

last thing - long term: I'm not a fan of amphibious attacks, but maybe we'll have to do it since we ain't exactly swarmed in land or resources for that matter.

We could:

1. kremlin/slave/eventually police state. Problem with police is our research will be... interesting. Advantage is research is rather compact and we can beeline deep. We could sushi on top of it since it's in the same line and we need bio for such a scenario. We ain't spi, so despite stone, UoS/SM doesn't have extreme appeal(though I suppose Izzy will build the ap, though with no religion founded by her, we could also have some zara/saladin/someone with fav. civ. theo or izzy could be pissed and build troops instead of AP) so no reason to delay SM.
2. kremlin/US/CE/buy troops. Clearly post AL we're at a big disadvantage, contrary to the standard situation where you normally overpass the ai by a mile at industrialization point. I don't like this because it requires two sets of buildings(both money and research multipliers) and it'll put a hard cap on our happiness. Furthermore, if we attack(space with no factories/plants - hmm), with some WW, we'll eat from our slider for culture.
3. media wonders to give us material for trade. They'll be harder to build without industrialization, but if we go early on this line we could probably nab them. Problem here - it gives us material for trade removing happy cap problem, but doesn't hint at all on what VC we could follow(in theory, blends well with UN, especially if we sushi it).

 

[ungy]

if all the spots with fresh water are too close to another city, are we allowed to settle without fresh water, or are we supposed to simply not settle the city?

I would say we can settle--I would view that as essentially "we want to settle near fresh water if possible"--so if it makes us settle suboptimally, fine.
But seems like it shouldn't totally cramp us.

and to prevent further confusions: if we capture a city not placed by our rules, we have to raze it or not?

no I think we can keep those.

As for looking way down the line, hard to tell. If we can avoid an early attack by Joao and claim the land we want we can easily whack him later. That might give us enough either for later war or run to space on our island.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

what do you think?

also, all 2nd part of the game scenarios I've rambled about started from the assumption joao's gone.

 

[ungy]

Joao has maxwarrand 200, that is pretty high so basically not that aggressive. OTH he has a small empire on a high level which increases dow risk. We need to get him to pleased in the future, gifting a tech seems ok to me, religion may take a while.

Aest-> lit seems ok to me, wait until we have some libs.

where do you find those numbers?

agree about gifting a tech--that should get us there. Later religion will make up for close borders.

Yes we should definately wait a bit but not sure how soon we'll get lib out. Since we're expansive we should build gran first. Not sure what the overflow in the capital will be but we might want to whip a gran after the mids if we don't have much overflow. Since we have lots of happy that's often almost a freebie with exp.

Snowly: At this point I'd break for comments after 10 turns (more or less). Is fine if you want to keep going afterwards but I think better to play shorter now.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

true; anyway, if no opinions, I'll go with initial city 5 placement. Lib will be tight due to bess, otherwise I think we'll have enough research via specs.

I'd overflow to settler, remove settler, build gran. to 4, whip rest of settler. I'd really want another settler in position soon. If forced, and no opinions, after city 4, city 5, I'd go with alt. city 7(basically, at 6-7 I prefer alt. versions - saw that dirk likes that setup too, don't know about the rest).

anyway, with ton of luck we'll have joao settle another 2 cities(my guesstimate is 1) then he'll start heading for our spots, so we'll have to start settling.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

ok, trying to figure out what to do(still thinking about a monty game I'm currently playing).

t83

Petersburg - chariot overflow to granary; I don't like it, since granary seems pretty useless there; we basically have 3 tiles worth working and well... we're working them And I'm sure we need a 3rd settler(probably for spot 4, since 5 and 7 are covered).

My problem with the dotmap is that everything is fine on paper as long as joao doesn't settle before us(then some spots could become unavailable due to 2 tiles between cities rule). We could obviously settle now and forget the issue, yet settling now has a ton of disadvantages. But since it's jungle, we have only 1 tile LoS, so he could settle before I'm actually able to see it. Need to move the chariots to actually see his movements.

Obviously, I whip the mids into gran. as discussed. Switch research to aest. for lit.

t84

I don't show you the movie with mids as we all saw it 100 times before(probably you have each and every frame of that movie screenshoted in one thread or another )...

Spoiler :

logic of the whole setup - if he comes with settler, the only way he could move unnoticed is 1n from the barbarian city, but we all know the ai does in his pants and doesn't move near those spots. Obviously, settlers are uncovered for additional fogbust which is unpleasant to say the least, but... not much I can do if we're to be able to see his settling parties. Damn jungle...

t85

nada; one archer shows up - might be starting; can't move the stupid worker to do the last part of the road since I need him to fogbust there(otherwise, at 1ne a barb. could spawn which would be on road, and moving 2sw could capture our worker and be 1n from our settler).

at least the he axe is still there(from the screenshot in my previous post) so we have that area fogbusted by joao). 5 turns of settler in petersburg.

t86

nada; joao's axe's still healing so still fogbusting(checking with worker doing 1se back 1nw)

t87

nada; joao's axe done healing, so probably will start roaming next turn...

t88

nada; axe still there, so probably that's where he want to settle?! doesn't make sense, yet that's usually the way it acts - fogbust/guard before. Hmm, whatever, 2 turns of settler in petersburg, so couldn't care less...

t89

out of all people, this clown gets the glh; he already has 3 coastal cities!
gah; though I suppose it can't be that bad afterall...
Also, he's pleased with both bess and izzy. What a popular chap...
ToA build somewhere, not that'd matter...

I order another chariot in petersburg as settler was 1 turn from completion(to cut unit upkeep for those 3 turns and since I can't send the settler unescorted anyway... Plus checked for joao settler and no sign, so... plenty of time

t90

confu in moscow; I don't revolt yet. Nothing else. Obviously, with my luck, it's in moscow, so those 2 cities still won't pop. borders anytime soon...

t91

gran in moscow; start on library(if we don't up the slider anytime soon, I'll go nuts ). Move a citizen from corn to forested hill, since it'd grow 1 turn before unhappiness disappears.

t92

The 2 major events of turn 92 are moving back the citizen from 1f2h to corn and whipping the wb in novgorod. All in all, a very interesting turn...

t93

nada

t94

joao has dyes online; have nothing to trade as per variant(can't trade the last copy of a food resource). Only alternatives would be stone or horses; I'm reluctant to trade either, though we should discuss that.

t95

the charge of the light brigade; joao sends 6 c1 archers towards barb city though he says fear my swordsman... Woot, way to go mate. Anyway, with ai bonuses against barbs at this level and with that c2cover axe I've noticed earlier, he should take that city even with archers... I 2 pop whip lib. in moscow.

t96

everything is in position.

Basically:

- Moscow finished it's lib. Set it to build a chariot(replace with whatever);
- raise research? We have library in moscow;
- we need settler for 6 asap; Izzy can send galley. Did see she's so close only this turn since that's when chariot got in position. Dumb enough, I did a worker in petersburg which will finish next turn. Should've done a settler since the worker won't have much to do bar roading(but we needed roading since 1st worker is blocked fogbusting).
From the picture, in the save, you'll find the settler for 4 moved 1sw. He still needs 3 turns to reach spot 6, so in the worst case scenario it'll be 1-2 turns too late.
Could 1 pop. whip worker in petersburg and overflow to settler, but might be too paranoid.
- please religiously move those 2 chariots 1 tile in the direction and back to check for possible joao settlers. I know it's boring, but if we manage to settle those 4 cities(3 are secured) things could start looking brighter.
- that worker is vital where it is. He fogbusts the key 1nw tile from where a barbarian spawn could move right 1n from settler at 5.
- do we want to trade joao stone for dyes/sugar? Happiness doesn't seem to be an issue atm. since our tiles are so crappy... We could start building on years of suppling with this, but my assumption is we'll get to +2 right about the time we'll kill him anyway, so meh;
- revolt to rep.? Moscow has 12 turns till ge and without ge the whole aest/lit. plan is worthless. Didn't start working on scientists there yet, as it'll pollute.
- we could move settler from 4 to 6 when worker from st. pete starts roading as he'll fogbust, then replace that one with the chariot from moscow;
- go mysticism then aest/poly/lit? Who gets to 20 and to 100 culture 1st on this setup will be king. Joao probably won't spam missionaries since it's not his religion, we won't have monasteries in place for a long time since we can't afford it, so probably it'll be a battle won by the 1st one who builds lib/monument combo(monument having the added advantage it has time to double the output since we can build it fast).
- if only confu spreads, it means izzy/bess are alone on their turf too; bess will prolly get philo 1st too, due to being philo and having the needed techs for bulbing it.

Anyway, joao focusing on that barb city made things pretty decent for us; I was hoping for that, but a little paranoia never hurts. A couple more turns for another settler and we could be in a very good position(as good as the circumstances allow )

P.S. - no, this was a short post; I usually write longer ones

 

[Dirk1302]

Well done. I like your paranoia about missing good city spots. It's the same with me. Mysticism indeed needs to be researched first. Research should be raised 100% so we can reach aest lit. We can plunk down scientists after.

 

[shyuhe]

Lurker comment:

I think 4 is not a legal settling location because there is freshwater 1NE. Yeah you can't settle 1NE but the water's still there...

 

[Dirk1302]

I think the restriction is only there if we could have settled 1NE. I was actually thinking about settling other cities in such a way that the 2 tile rule would prevent a freshwater tile so we could settle a favorable non freshwater tile. Couldn't find a favorable config though on this map.

 

[Rusten]

Haven't posted in a while, but as some of you know my inet-connection dropped last weekend. However, all is fine now so I'm back in the game. I still need to catch up, but some immediate thoughts when opening the save:

Good job blocking off the land! So good in fact that my other plan is less intriguing although still worth mentioning.

1:

Lisbon has the GLH, is not on a hill and can be reached the turn after declaring war. We've secured a lot of cities, so I'm not sure I'm in favour, but it is tempting to strike Lisbon with HAs. The combination of GLH/REP and overseas trade routes to Izzy/Liz would secure our research. I'd scout Joao some more with OB to explore this possiblity.

With the extra happiness from Joao (assumng we can trade for it soon) and REP we can 2-pop whip a good amount of HAs in Moscow. Novgorod is good with farms and fish too and St. Petersburg has a lot of natural production.

2: Judging by the current trend we're in good shape for a diplomatic victory later on.

p.s. Lisbon would be good for bureaucracy as he's cleared a lot of forests for us, has rivers and especially the dye. Capturing this city would be huge -- both for bureaucracy and for the GLH.

The seafood cities could contribute to a horse archer attack as well. I'm thinking this would be after rushing the GLib with the GE. There is no (new) big counter to HAs until Pikes anyway, and we have a long time window until they're in the game.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

thought about rushing too; I see one issue here - izzy with her 5 wfybta limit. We get -1 from declaring on friend and detour to theo ain't exactly on our research path with bess around so even if we'll have +8 for religion, it'll be an eternity till friendly(says the ex marathon player in me who's used with friendly or furious at 0ad ). Even with this issue, I'd also be for it. As long as it's lisbon only(he definitely has walls in the other 2 cities - he doesn't have much to build and it's clear he focused on troops due to wanting to remove the barb. city before advancing with settlers). Hill + wall + lbow is crappy since post glib... I think it means it'll be lbows(he's small and with glh, can't have crap research even if it's an ai).

70% for going for it if we're to vote(10% for the wine I just had ).

otherwise, beside trading issues... we don't have much to build anyway; I'd like AWat for the priest but bar that... and even that will be iffy since 99% bess will have philo at least 10 turns before us(no clue about her wonder prob.).

 

[Rusten]

The more I think about it the more I like it.

70% for going for it if we're to vote(10% for the wine I just had ).

Add another 10% (my wine)

otherwise, beside trading issues... we don't have much to build anyway

Ditto. We can't improve most of our tiles so whipping away citizens makes more sense than not to and we need to put those hammers into something useful.

And yes; the idea is to capture Lisbon and be happy with that.

 

[Dirk1302]

I basically like the plan but:

We'll need quite a lot of harchers to do it. I guess Joao will be at ~50-60% culture once we attack, only 1 spear would cost us ~ 3 harchers. So we need to scout him out first. We could also use cats in the process.

Taking GLH is a very good thing of course. I'm not sure the capital's of much further use if we don't take 1 or 2 of the surrounding cities, Joao will have some units so we also need to be prepared for a counter on our own cities.

I wonder when Joao's cap will pop borders again, maybe it doesn't make much of a difference for the speed attack.

So imo we should scout first, then we'll have a clearer idea if can be done.

 

[ungy]

Nice going Snowly.

I have to say I'm not as wild about the HA rush plan. We are at 475 and we need to research myst-poly-aesth so by the time we get to HA I think we're hardly rushing.

We most likely have iron at the capital, so we could get a sword army together then whip out a bunch of catas once con is in.

Block Izzie as top priority--we can deal with Joao if we lose a spot but that'll totally screw us up if she settles on our continent.

Snowly do you want to continue a bit or should I take the next set?

 

[SnowlyWhite]

wouldn't mind continuing abit, on the other hand, tbh, I have no clue how long a set usually is

 

[ungy]

wouldn't mind continuing abit, on the other hand, tbh, I have no clue how long a set usually is

well we play kind of loose--shorter sets as the game gets on as there's obviously a lot more going on.
I'm a big fan of the pause where the active player breaks for comments when something comes up but then continues so he/we get his continuity but also everyone gets to see what's happening and help with strategy.

At this stage I'd say around 10 turns feels right to me --but always better to play another turn or two to get to a tech or break early if something unexpected comes up.

So go for it!

 

[Dirk1302]

where do you find those numbers?

It's from XML and C++ Gamecore, DanF wrote some very interesting things about ai war declarations:

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=7190899&postcount=84

 

[SnowlyWhite]

quite tired today, but 99% it'll be done tomorrow.

 

[SnowlyWhite]

t96 continued

slider at 100, switch to mysticism; 28btp, at 11 deficit; st. petersburg can do a settler in 8 turns, so I'll start on it next turn after the worker is finished. Checked and J doesn't want to part with both sugar/dye for stone, he'd do it only for ponnies, so I postpone the deal for the time being.

I can't move settler from 4 towards 6 this turn since worker ain't yet in position for fogbusting

t99

J gets a gspy from GW. I switch novgorod from granary to monument(one of the cities with culture problems I expect) planning to whip it with overflow into lib, then move the granary back up.
Cap would grow into unhappy, so I move from corn to 1f2h hill.

Research: myst done, move to aest.

t100

nada; moscow chariot - warrior(for fogbusting at 4) then another chariot(with 2 chariots flapping around barb. city, maybe we can get it - low chances but nothing to build anyway)

t101 350bc

bess gets tao(guess it's bess, she can't research philosophy according to tech screen). Founded in 375bc.
Novgord - monument whipped -> library. Moscow warrior goes to novgord since worker will fogbust temporarily and novgord ain't too happy.

t102

bess wants to gift us archery; obviously, I refuse. Tao in st. petersburg.

t104

J settler incoming. S6 goes towards 4.

t105

s6 goes back to s6 since settler from petersburg will reach in the same time.
Petersburg starts another settler(case we get to raze the barb city - low chance, but...).
J is taoist. Prolly izzy got christianity since she switched to theo next turn after it was founded.
I have to settle 5 since otherwise joao could settler near next turn(his settler/spear are on road, so can move 2 and still settle(I doubt he's targeting 5, but...).

t107

given coimbra's position I ponder if we should settle 4 or not. If we're to have a good shot at keeping all 3 dyes(with combined cultural pressure) we need it now.
Rostov is making 4 commerce(3 from trade route, 1 from tile) and we pay 4.45 for it, so almost breaking even. Thus I settle 4 hoping we won't lose more then 1gpt from overall increase in maintenance(4 is close then rostov).

Moscow starts growing again since we'll have a ge next turn.

I'm right and yaroslav produces only a 1 gpt increase in maintenance.

t108

whip gran. in novgord with further overflow in library, revolt to rep.
GE born in moscow.

t109

scouting abit joao; moscow works on 2 scientists.

t110

1 turn to aesthetics

- dubious 8 is in case we get to raze the barb city(totally unlikely, but... we have 2 chariots in position - can get 2 more if we move the 2 sentry chariots which are pretty much unneeded now since we have everything fogbusted and 4-5 were settled). Settler should be soon done in st. petersburg.
However J already has a horde of archers there.
- all ep are focused on Joao;
- 1 turn to aesthetics; I'd say part research alpha/maths(1 turn) then finish aesthetics and trade it next turn for those 2 and probably iw; tbd.
Noone is willing to trade maths yet but that should change soon - it's 125bc so can't be open much more imho.
- we have a cottage on rostov's only unjungled tile(iron prolly) since that's the only improvement I could build).
- I've built a rack in moscow in lack of other interesting things; should've done a lighthouse.
- 2 scientists are working in moscow;
- with 1 turn to completion of granary in novgorod, I've whipped it into library(see t108). So normally we should be able to whip lib. at 4 in novgorod).
- 6 & 7 have settlers ontop.
- I like 8 since it'll provide us with some production when we get the tiles from lisbon.
- J is currently working a 1f2h forested hill n of coimbra, but in 3 turns novgord should get them. That means we could get a headstart on culture if we whip the monument asap in rostov/yaroslav and capture the dye tile with a plantation already on it.

Again pretty tired(but well, already postponed it yesterday), so double check; not building a lighthouse and not starting to grow moscow earlier were definitely two mistakes. See if nothing else.