UNGY6 The health nuts

[ungy]

I guess I might be on duty of the war or the war preparation.
Here's my list of units needed in the beginning of the war:

4~5 Battleships
15+ Fighters on Carriers
16 Bombers
20 Marines on 5 transporters
20 Tanks preloaded near Brennus or Liz's border

Unfortunately we can not adopt slavery (the major reason I research MM 1st. Also I always defy this resolution). Still I think this can be done in 20~30 turns with rush buy.

I don't know whether taking vassals will affect the altitude of Izzy & Saladin to us. I think even completely wipe them out does not take more than a couple turns.

I think reloading to get rid of the trade bug is OK.

ATM our production is as follows: 258h, 1290c at 0%. We have no HE. So with rushbuy our max unit production is around 650h/turn.
We'll grow a bit but I think we leave Lisbon on internet.
We need to research rifling ASAP and for this plan we should also get flight. I would still think we want to go for internet so maybe wait on flight and build all the other units. If we sell DR to Sal for 280g we can research rifling in one turn.

This army will cost us: 20xtanks=3600
20xmarine=3200
5 transports+5 BB=1750
5 carrier=850
15 ftr=1500
16bmr=2240

=13,140. So that's right around 20 turns--likely a bit more since we need some barracks, rounding, etc. If we go internet for flight then we can rushbuy the planes and aircraft carriers in a few turns and likely have the force ready to sail in around 24-25 turns. We can also take PS for some unit hammers.

 

[ungy]

sorry guys I was out of town and didn't realize that I was up.

So I'm for using the copper trade save--seems fair to me and thanks emperor pete.

I see two basic paths--space and war-diplo.

In either case I think we should try for internet.

Space has the following problems: No aluminum. 19 turns to internet (if we get it) then around 15 for apollo then slow parts. Hard to say but I'm guessing too slow.

Diplo--if we can avoid the FR resolution we can most likely get votes of Sal and Iz (sal will be close--we need theo).
I count the following votes atm:

Us 201
KK 210
Liz 132
Iz 132
Bren 120
Sal 163.

+958 need 60% or 575. We'll lose some pop on conquest but we should be able to outgrow the AI I think.

So if we can get Iz and Sal we're at 496--we just need one war. this seems like a better path--what do you guys think?

 

[Rusten]

I like your war-diplo plan. We can't rush-buy projects so I agree space could be too slow. As long as we get the internet we should be in good shape. You can usually beat the AIs in these late game wars -- they're not good at it. Just raze capitals if they go for space (and cities if culture) and be patient. I rarely head into these situations as I find them tiresome, I prefer to win in other ways, but it's our best bet here I think.

 

[Dirk1302]

I actually like these late game showdowns, sure they're tedious especially stack management (the biggest firaxis miss imo, could have been so much better). But it's worth it, gives the game an epic feel.I like the diplo/war plan too especially since i can just watch and don't have to rush the army . FR resolution just has to be defied.

 

[ungy]

OK--I'll prepare for war tomorrow.

 

[ungy]

getting started from emperorpete's coppertrade save:

we sell DR to Sal for 280g:

We shift gears and prepare for war.
I rework our cities--start HE in Novgorod.
Plan to workshop some of our recently built cottages.
research rifling.

There was a free religion UN vote last turn--it's not going to happen:

we switch civics:

1780--we pop a GM.

1785 KK builds TGD, casing.

1800 Iz gets comp--I send our spies over to pillage the copper. Internet in 13--could go either way.

UN resolution--FR we defy.

I switch research from superconductors to ecology--super was a mistake I think but we've only got around 200 beakers in.

1802--the resolution goes down as before:

Votes--Us 218
Bren 120
Sal 170
Iz 139
KK 249
Iz 128

=1024.

So diplo should be 615--should come comfortalbly with sal and Iz.

Iz drops out of friendly.

I'll break here but I can continue--a few questions:

We have a GG--I'm thinking another healer but maybe settle in Novgorod?

should we try and pillage Izzie's copper?--I don't have much experience with these late game pillages but I think we'll have some extra relations with her and we really need that internet.

I'll do some work on when to switch and start rushbuying but I think it's pretty soon.

Sal is only at +8--we're only getting +2 from theo. We'll take a -1 for attacking Liz. Once internet is decided we can attack Brennus and bribe him in for MMS.

 

[ungy]

save is here:

 

[Duckweed]

Another healer is better.
I'd like to attack Brennus 1st.
I'm afraid it is too late to pillage Izzy's copper. Internet is not necessary.

 

[ungy]

Another healer is better.
I'd like to attack Brennus 1st.
I'm afraid it is too late to pillage Izzy's copper. Internet is not necessary.

well we were hoping to pick up flight from it.
Brennus has the advantage that we could engineer a dogpile and pick up MMS.
Good chance we'd have just enough pop if we wipe out Brennus to bring it home.
I don't have much experience with these late game pillages--I would assume the AI repairs quickly but why is it too late--won't we have to pillage it a few times?

 

[Duckweed]

I don't know about Izzy's best production city. Given an average estimation, her IW city will have 300% production bonus or 200% bonus with/without copper. I'd assume she can finish Internet in 10/13 turns, so there's not much difference with/without copper. Moreover, how many turns our spies can arrive the copper site? Research Flight ourselves takes several turns. I would not rely on Internet. Edit: The cash from Internet is still good.

We alone can wipe Brennus quickly, just need be aware of KK and manage to keep him stay out of the war.

 

[ungy]

I don't know about Izzy's best production city. Given an average estimation, her IW city will have 300% production bonus or 200% bonus with/without copper. I'd assume she can finish Internet in 10/13 turns, so there's not much difference with/without copper. Moreover, how many turns our spies can arrive the copper site? Research Flight ourselves takes several turns. I would not rely on Internet. Edit: The cash from Internet is still good.

We alone can wipe Brennus quickly, just need be aware of KK and manage to keep him stay out of the war.

still seems like internet could go either way--she could be building something else for a turn or two.
we certainly don't need the help--it's just that we need Saladin's vote and we're on the cusp at +8 so I figured we could get some MMS bonus.
Yes we definately need to keep KK out.
I guess the question is should we research flight--I would say no and better to go a little later if we have to research it ourselves.

 

[Duckweed]

Although I don't expect the Internet too much, holding on Flight for now is a good idea.

 

[ungy]

OK-getting going again:

If we have to research flight we are 5 turns. Internet is 12. So max on flight is 11 +5=16 turns.

I decide to hold off for a couple of turns on US.
GG will be a healer.
I workshop a dye and internet is now 11--should have been doing that earlier. I think I can squeeze another turn off tho.

1806 pillage Izzie's copper--we do get another turn off internet (we've workshopped 2dye and sugar).
Iz instantly rebuilds the mine--no sense doing that again.

We make a civic change and start rushing units:

1808--Iz takes a Brennus city. I should have had a few units over there to scout I'm worried that she'll start to run over him and he'll vassal to her. We can bribe her for peace for around 1000g but then he may vassal to KK?


What do you guys think?

I'll hand it off here since I'm up in the AW game

We're at 7 to internet, which is 2 turns less than the original projections.
KK got comps this turn.

Note that Sal does not have AL or combustion so he won't put up much of a fight.

The tech screen:

Next up should redo the tiles around Lisbon--3 resources are workshopped.

 

[ungy]

save is here:

 

[Duckweed]

A couple issues raises after looking at the save

We don't adopted Chris (also not all our cities get Chris?), our units could used another promotion.

Our fleet rallies at the western Sea, Eastern sea is better.

 

[ungy]

A couple issues raises after looking at the save

We don't adopted Chris (also not all our cities get Chris?), our units could used another promotion.

Probably should have taken it for a bit then switched back.
I was thinking that we wouldn't get that many units out and there was a longshot that we could get attacked by dropping Sal. We also need him pleased for his UN vote--I think we can take the UN from KK when the sec gen vote comes up and I confess I had lost track of the vote timing.
We also need to be no religion for the copper trade--although again could have switched back as I don't think Brennus would cancel as long as we're pleased within 10 turns.

Our fleet rallies at the western Sea, Eastern sea is better.

definately. Not sure if it's worth making the change now but probably if we still want to go for Sal.
Not sure if Iz kept her city but that would be a good base.

What about the bribe to stop the war between Iz and Sal?

Iz should start to make headway now, although I guess we could let her whack Brennus and go for the much tougher Liz--Liz is closer and we're planning on getting Izzie's vote anyway--we wouldn't have to eliminate Liz to win if Iz takes a good piece of Brennus. There is a risk that Brennus vassals to KK if we do the peace option, if we let the war go there's a good chance Brennus vassals to Iz once we get rolling.

If we attack Liz, we take a -1 with Sal which would knock him under the threshold for UN vote (and another -1 if we vassal her).

 

[Duckweed]

Copper trade is not a problem since Brennus knows the trade value, although oil is useless for him now. Saladin will vote for us even with religious difference.

Let the war continues, Brennus is too big for Izzy to swallow.

 

[ungy]

Roster:
Ungy -Just played
Snowlywhite--UP ??
Duckweed--On deck
Rusten
Dirk

Snowly had posted 4 weeks ago that he was very busy and has not posted in a while.

I'd say Duckweed if you can take it go ahead unless Snowly posts a got it and Snowly can get back in when he gets some time.

 

[ungy]

Copper trade is not a problem since Brennus knows the trade value, although oil is useless for him now. Saladin will vote for us even with religious difference.

Let the war continues, Brennus is too big for Izzy to swallow.

I was concerned that the trade would be cancelled if we fell below pleased--I guess I'm not sure how that works.
So we should take religion then--we have a missionary as well.

Yes the more I thought about the war that's what I think as well. We should have a very short war as Brennus has only rifles --if Iz takes another city or even two that's fine. If we pull it off we should win, if we get a piece of Brennus that's all to the good--there should be enough time for Liz.
We should bribe Sal into the war tho--we need every little bit of diplo with him so even a +1 MMS is worth it.

 

[Duckweed]

OK, I can take it. Is a couple of days waiting enough?

For the copper deal, I don't exactly know what's the code inside. I think it could be the fair trade that cause the AI wants to keep the trade, this also apply to OB at annoyed. Brennus is earning several hundreds of gold from the copper-oil trade, isn't he?