Unitstats

[seZereth]

Dont know guys, but we should agree on one method, and i simply dont want to have later units replace units from the era after ancient, the militia should stay the main part of the army through the game and the more modern units should be the specials, which fill out special tasks or are just a strong addition (i think we have this concept included by making those units limited number) ... The militia Swordsman should be upgradeable to royalguard, but the royalguard should NOT be the modern militia Swordsman!!!! And you still should be able to build a spearman, after you researched a pikeman. they simple should fullfill different tasks!

So i liked the idea of giving the units not too different strength, but manage it with bonus against different classes. the Units have bonus against their era and the era before. So you will have to research if you want to counter heavy cavalry or big monsters.
I am very busy with creating the formations.xml (have to add every unit (more than 150) by several copy paste steps...), so we will have some more time to think about it. I liked the system from Ploeperpengel, but would like any other too if it shows to be good.

 

[DutchJunkie]

Dont know guys, but we should agree on one method, and i simply dont want to have later units replace units from the era after ancient, the militia should stay the main part of the army through the game and the more modern units should be the specials, which fill out special tasks or are just a strong addition (i think we have this concept included by making those units limited number) ... The militia Swordsman should be upgradeable to royalguard, but the royalguard should NOT be the modern militia Swordsman!!!! And you still should be able to build a spearman, after you researched a pikeman. they simple should fullfill different tasks!

So i liked the idea of giving the units not too different strength, but manage it with bonus against different classes. the Units have bonus against their era and the era before. So you will have to research if you want to counter heavy cavalry or big monsters.
I am very busy with creating the formations.xml (have to add every unit (more than 150) by several copy paste steps...), so we will have some more time to think about it. I liked the system from Ploeperpengel, but would like any other too if it shows to be good.

Spearmen is strong vs Cavalry and good in defense. Pikemen will have the same, only it'll be stronger as it is more modern. This is true because Pikemen wear armour and are more trained.

I agree that units shouldn't become obsolete; the Pikeman is stronger, but also more expensive to build! But can you give an example in characteristics you want to give the Spearmen and Pikemen to be different and to be used for different purposes.

In many cases that just isn't possible, they only greatly differ in strength and cost.

Spearmen -- Pikemen
Bowmen -- Imperial Bowmen
etcetera ..

The only thing that sounds logic to me is the appearance of monsters, will also make monster-hunting possible .. that is units more affective against monsters ..

 

[Ploeperpengel]

I totally agree with you seZ Age of Discovery should stay the main amount of troops. There is where the coretroops come from.
And DJ of course it's possible to diverse Spears-Pikes-Halberds why shouldn't it?
We just didn't agree on it yet. Also what's missing are armorrules we agreed on. I got some ideas and some where alreadfy posted. But could we try to get some data for what we agreed on earlier?
That means without weapüons and armor for now! I vote we do them as promotions later. And in a new thread.

@P.L.
I don't like your list because it stronly based on era mods and they should be a last add if needed at all(and lead to weird results like DJs calculator shows)

I summarized in the third post what we got so far(without weapons and armor)

 

[seZereth]

well, more modern era Units should be 1. slightly stronger from base and 2. should be a unique addition to your Troops, furthermore most of them have special abilities in WH tabletop

(an Empire Greatsword and a Swordsman:
Greatswords (12): m4 ws4 bs3 s3 t3 w1 i3 a1 ld8

- great weapon, hand weapon, full plate armour
- stubborn; take ld tests on unmodified ld
- Only one unit allowed

Swordsmen (7): m4 ws3 bs3 s3 t3 w1 i3 a1 ld7

- Sword (hand weapon), light armour, shield
- Halberdiers, Handgunners, Swordsmen, Spearmen can use the detachment rules

Weapon rules:
- Light armour: 6+ save
- Shield: 6+ extra save (6+ and shield gives 5+ save)
- Fighting with hand weapon and shield only gives 6+ extra save in close combat

you see, their stats dont differ too much, but in ws and in ld (1 each), but the greatswords got another equipment and the stubborn rule, this is what makes them different, and you can only field one unit of them in tabletop!!!)

And another Example for Civ is this:
a militia_spearman normaly carries a shield, which should give bonus against Archers, and he should get bonus versus light cavalry, a Pikeman doesnt carry a shield (i know he is more armored, but that is still the worse variant against a missile), is with that less effective against ranged, but should get bonus versus light and heavy cavalry. A Halbard is a mix between a spear/pike and an axe, so it should give bonus versus L&H Cavalry (less than a pike, cause not such long) and a bonus versus Armor/Melee.
So you see, one can differentiate here.

A bowman and a Longbowman is harder to differentiate, but perhaps we can think of something here too instead of making the longbowman simply better.
(Archers (8): m4 ws3 bs3 s3 t3 w1 i3 a1 ld7

- Bow and hand weapon
- Skirmishers
- One unit can be huntsmen (2)

Huntsmen
- Longbow and hand weapon
- Skirmishers
- Scouts

Weapon rules
- Skirmishers fight in loose formation; no ranks -- no rank bonus when attacking or attacked, 360 degree view
- Scouts can be deployed when all other forces are deployed and outside the deployment zone
- Bow: shoots 24 inch strength 3 shot
- Longbow: shoots 30 inch strength 3 )

 

[DutchJunkie]

indeed .. the bonusses can make the difference .. and I like that .. that way all humans will be equally strong (almost) but tactics become more important. The other positive thing is that all units will be produced all game long ..

still .. the pikeman is an improved spearman .. but we should do our best to involve tactic as much as possible in the way you describe. THAT will make this mod unique.

Edit .. i'll implement this (and the 3rd post) in my excel sheet and give some examples of the outcome. By the outcomes we can judge our decisions. But I also need to post all unitstats (of almost all races!!!) so this could take a while. I'm busy at work so no free time there too

 

[Duke van Frost]

To differentiate the Longbowman from the Archer I would suggest to give him +1 firstrike (because he has a longer range and other units need longer to engage into melee combat), but that is certainly not enough to differntiate them from one another.

I also suggest to give the longbowman a bonus versus armor, because the english longbows in RL history were able to pierce even heavy armor, that´s why the english fielded them as their main-force when beginning the 100 years war against "Continental Europe" and took the mos of the rest of their Knights down from their horses, thus ending the age of "knightly combat tactics".

 

[DutchJunkie]

To differentiate the Longbowman from the Archer I would suggest to give him +1 firstrike (because he has a longer range and other units need longer to engage into melee combat), but that is certainly not enough to differntiate them from one another.

I also suggest to give the longbowman a bonus versus armor, because the english longbows in RL history were able to pierce even heavy armor, that´s why the english fielded them as their main-force when beginning the 100 years war against "Continental Europe" and took the mos of the rest of their Knights down from their horses, thus ending the age of "knightly combat tactics".

I agree with both:
- longer range = more time to shoot
- bigger bow = stronger shot

But saves are part of strength for the moment, so longer bows should give a strength bonus?

 

[Duke van Frost]

I agree with both:
- longer range = more time to shoot
- bigger bow = stronger shot

But saves are part of strength for the moment, so longer bows should give a strength bonus?

Yeah, that´s logical, but the problem is, it wouldn´t diverse them tactics-wise, so I think a simple strength modifier will not work

 

[Ploeperpengel]

I agree with both:
- longer range = more time to shoot
- bigger bow = stronger shot

But saves are part of strength for the moment, so longer bows should give a strength bonus?

We didn't decide yet how saverolls are implemented exactly. I would reflect saves in icombats but via promotion and not affecting the basic strenght.

@Everyone
But I'm stating this the third time now. Could we please, PLEASE! have some unitvalues calculated based on what we agreed(third post). LEAVING OUT armor and weapons. It really makes not much sense how much firststrikes or whatever a weapon gives without knowing what values the basic units have in the first place! I really don't want to see another 10 weaponlists without having the basic system worked out.

 

[seZereth]

OK, my vote goes for your suggestion, like stated in the first post, but i would try to leave the era modification or at least keep it very low (perhaps add not multiply), cause special rules and equipment will make the era difference by coming available there. units tending to be too week can be fixed by hand (after testing!!!)
So everyone post a vote for ploeperpengels "third post" or suggest something new

 

[Ploeperpengel]

The Era mod can't be added until we get some value for units without equipment and after that with it. I thought that's also clear already

-First basic values for at least three different races I suggest to have a range of data.

-Next step is Weapons and Armor. They will have to be done in a way no civ gets overpowered(this can even mean some trooptypes could be needed to be affected slightly different by weapons if different costs isn't enough-or we use average groupsize).

-Last step would be eramods IF weapons aren't enough to give tactical advantage by discovering a new tech to build it.

We already have Empire, woodelves WH-values here. As soon we have the orcs too we have something to compare.

 

[Duke van Frost]

STR+Toughness+Attacks+Saving Rolls should be reflected in STR + Era-Mod

We didn't decide yet how saverolls are implemented exactly. I would reflect saves in icombats but via promotion and not affecting the basic strenght.

Attacks(A) will modify this:
A of 1: + 0% Combat
A of 2: + 20% Combat
A of 3: + 40% Combat

So am I right that the strength of the Unit in cIV is supposed to be "WH STR" + "WH Toughness" + "Attackmodifier in %"

Do we Have any WH Unitstats converted to cIV Stats right now? If not I´ll do the ones for the Empire RIGHT NOW!

 

[Ploeperpengel]

Please read post 3! That's all explained with two examples there.
Ok you the Empire and I do the Woodelves. Boss is outa house

 

[Duke van Frost]

The problem with the examples is that you didn´t give the WH stats there and didn´t show the way you calculated any strength (no example for that there).

So please - how do you want it to be calculated EXACTLY?

 

[Ploeperpengel]

The WH stats are given in the threads by DJ and PL!
Str is as seZ stated Str+Toughness.
We need to come up with something for the wounds though, Just noticed whats posted won't work.(wounds higher than 3 what about that?)
I suggest
wound 1 is +0%STR
wound 2 is +20% STR
above 2 every wound adds 10% to a total of 100% with ten wounds

 

[Duke van Frost]

And Attacks give +20% Strength every step above 1?

A 1 is +0& STR
A 2 is +20% STR
A 3 is +40% STR
up to a total of 100% with 6 Attacks (If any Unit got that much)

 

[Duke van Frost]

All the Core Units of the Empire get at least 1 FS with Ini of 3 (which seems to be the average value for this) maybe we should give +1 FS with an Ini over 4 instead??

Or is it intended that every unit gets 1 FS at least??

 

[Ploeperpengel]

All the Core Units of the Empire get at least 1 FS with Ini of 3 (which seems to be the average value for this) maybe we should give +1 FS with an Ini over 4 instead??

Or is it intended that every unit gets 1 FS at least??

Undead, Dwarfs and Orcs have Ini2(at least in the old rules) so yes that's intended to make a difference to slow units(since we haven't got negative firststrikes). But I explained that in post 3 already.

 

[seZereth]

furthermore: if a unit with firststrike 1 battles another unit with firststrike 1, it will result in no unit carriing out firststrikes! so i think that is a really good system to carry out initiative and WS !

 

[Ploeperpengel]

There are Monster and heros which get a lot of attacks. I also made an alternative propousal for attacks in the third post.
Puh I'm close of just making up the stats without a system. At least for Monsters and heros.