Do I have to invade neighbours and take a couple of cities or even beat another player to enable Manhattan Project? Is it now impossible to make nucear arsenal as a peaceful country without taking down anybody else?
Do I have to invade neighbours and take a couple of cities or even beat another player to enable Manhattan Project? Is it now impossible to make nucear arsenal as a peaceful country without taking down anybody else?
Given that the Manhatten Project was a crash wartime program that threw immense resources at the problem of developing an atomic weapon, that actually sounds about right. Only one country in the world had the resources to do it, in reality.
On the other hand, after all that initial effort by the USA, it was orders of magnitude easier for each subsequent civ/country to get an atomic bomb. I wonder if that progression will be modeled to the same extent? (I haven't had time to watch all the material that has exploded onto the threads today)
Given that the Manhatten Project was a crash wartime program that threw immense resources at the problem of developing an atomic weapon, that actually sounds about right. Only one country in the world had the resources to do it, in reality.
On the other hand, after all that initial effort by the USA, it was orders of magnitude easier for each subsequent civ/country to get an atomic bomb. I wonder if that progression will be modeled to the same extent? (I haven't had time to watch all the material that has exploded onto the threads today)
Not, perhaps, automatically, or we would be sitting today with Ethiopia and Sudan lobbing nukes at each other IRL.
But a major bonus to producing nuclear weapons (NOT Fusion) after anybody has produced the first one: as in, at least a 50% reduction in cost and resources required.
If they do add a 4th 'contemporary - near future' Age that would justify a further Age-related reduction. I remember a few years ago reading a paper that gave estimated times for various countries to develop nuclear weapons if they so desired, and for some of them it was measured in months or weeks, not years. That's pretty close to 'automatic' in game terms, but you'd have to start with nuclear power reactors and a hefty Science establishment, at least.
Not, perhaps, automatically, or we would be sitting today with Ethiopia and Sudan lobbing nukes at each other IRL.
But a major bonus to producing nuclear weapons (NOT Fusion) after anybody has produced the first one: as in, at least a 50% reduction in cost and resources required.
If they do add a 4th 'contemporary - near future' Age that would justify a further Age-related reduction. I remember a few years ago reading a paper that gave estimated times for various countries to develop nuclear weapons if they so desired, and for some of them it was measured in months or weeks, not years. That's pretty close to 'automatic' in game terms, but you'd have to start with nuclear power reactors and a hefty Science establishment, at least.
I wouldn't count IRL Ethiopia and Sudan as civ equivalents.. (They could definitely be civs in game, but IRL they are like IPs)... [they would be fine as civ options in game but "the game we are in" they weren't selected. (and especially in the Modern and any later ages when you know all the players, any civ that is not selected should be a possible IP)
Civs should have the mechanics that make them like the top 5-20 powers today (all of which are either nuclear or could build nukes whenever they wanted to)
If you had a 4th Age, Nukes should either be available from the start or a Tier 1 Tech. Any civ should Easily be able to have enough to wipe out every settlement on the planet. (but retaliating should also be easy and impossible to stop)
I wouldn't count IRL Ethiopia and Sudan as civ equivalents.. (They could definitely be civs in game, but IRL they are like IPs)... [they would be fine as civ options in game but "the game we are in" they weren't selected.
Civs should have the mechanics that make them like the top 5-20 powers today (all of which are either nuclear or could build nukes whenever they wanted to)
If you had a 4th Age, Nukes should either be available from the start or a Tier 1 Tech. Any civ should Easily be able to have enough to wipe out every settlement on the planet. (but stopping retaliation should be impossible)
Having been in the nuclear business in the US Army for 15+ years, the problem is not having nuclear weapons but delivering them.
'Suitcase' nukes are very sophisticated devices, not available 'out of the box' and, frankly, relatively easy to detect with various means. Regular nuclear weapons need, usually, either a suicide vehicle or aircraft/missiles. As the on-going Ukrainian and recent Middle Eastern episodes have shown, manned aircraft and missiles big enough and with the range to carry nuclear weapons without committing suicide are not certain to reach a target any more. That makes using nuclear weapons very risky, and not just for the target.
In a 'near future' Age, I would be far more worried about Biological or AI weaponry than nuclear. Many groups are trying to develop 'autonomous AI' weapons, and they scare me far more than nuclear, even Fusion weapons do. Unlike Asimov, nobody has so far managed to build Ethics or Morality into computers, so Autonomous Weapons are potentially uncontrollable by definition. Likewise, Biological weapons do not have reliable 'off' switches: once let loose, there is no telling when or if they ever stop or what, if anything, is left when they do stop working.
Not, perhaps, automatically, or we would be sitting today with Ethiopia and Sudan lobbing nukes at each other IRL.
But a major bonus to producing nuclear weapons (NOT Fusion) after anybody has produced the first one: as in, at least a 50% reduction in cost and resources required.
If they do add a 4th 'contemporary - near future' Age that would justify a further Age-related reduction. I remember a few years ago reading a paper that gave estimated times for various countries to develop nuclear weapons if they so desired, and for some of them it was measured in months or weeks, not years. That's pretty close to 'automatic' in game terms, but you'd have to start with nuclear power reactors and a hefty Science establishment, at least.
nah, the equivalent of this logic is that playable civs would be the nuclear powers — us, china, russia, uk, france, india, pakistan, israel, north korea and formerly apartheid south africa—and IPs woood he everyone else.
that seems to be the implication since the end can only be completed once someone fulfills the role of the US first
nah, the equivalent of this logic is that playable civs would be the nuclear powers — us, china, russia, uk, france, india, pakistan, israel, north korea and formerly apartheid south africa—and IPs woood he everyone else.
that seems to be the implication since the end can only be completed once someone fulfills the role of the US first
Actually, a little more subtle than that:
Fulfill the role of the USA for a Military Victory - nuclear weapons
Fulfill the role of the USSR for a Science Victory - manned space flight
I rather like the idea that Victories are not all centered on a single real civ's achievements.
Now if they'd just let me rename cities, on achieving a Science Victory I should be able to rename a town or city 'Gagarin' . . .
nah, the equivalent of this logic is that playable civs would be the nuclear powers — us, china, russia, uk, france, india, pakistan, israel, north korea and formerly apartheid south africa—and IPs woood he everyone else.
that seems to be the implication since the end can only be completed once someone fulfills the role of the US first
Those (plus entities like Germany, Japan Canada, etc. that could easily build a nuke in a year if they wanted) would be the only groups that would be "civs" in our game.
In some Civ 7 games, America is not a Modern civ.
but in all Civ 7 games the mechanics that are used are mechanics that model things like IRL America.
So for a 4th Age, I would be completely in favor of "civs' that never got close to building nukes .... modern Vietnam or Cuba for example. However, if they are chosen in a 4th Age they should have (almost) automatic access to nukes. Just like anyone else.
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