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[Callonia]

AI Cheats are boring but not losing a single city since Civ 3 isn't?

Is that what you just basically stated?


Aye yi yi.

I think you're crazy now because what I stated is that science cheats is boring. What that means, Deity progresses too fast for it to be even enjoyable at all. You could just snap your fingers and yer launching a space ship and the game is over already.

I like the speed of science on King difficulty.

And yes, I haven't lost a single friggin city in a decade of playing Civ series. Even doom stacks can't pry cities from me because I protect them with doom stacks.

Only time I lose cities is all because of science cheats on deity. That's it.
Last time I played on Civ 5 deity was when I got involved in an enormous war during ancient era, it was pretty cool considering it never happens normally. I fought Egypt and Russia to a stalemate they couldn't take a city from me.

Basically they went nuts and charged hard and straight at my capital while I collapsed into double crescent formation and then surrounded/smashed them from all directions. They got routed shortly after that.

Then some 100 turns later, egypt and russia is coming at me with huge army several eras ahead from cheats while I got longswordmen and so I lost. Can't remember number of turns cuz its been years maybe 2012, that 100 turns is some random number i pulled out of thin air.

And so I lost only because of science cheats not because they kicked my butt.

And I was like this so lame and moved back down to King.

And I am playing Civ series because there is no other game out there like it until recently. Basically put, I was bored but played civ 5 because there's nothing something else and so I played it just to kill time and do random stuff. Had fun just laying down roads and building farms etc etc.

The AI have never been a credible threat even once expect for that once in a blue moon one time encounter with Hiawatha in civ 5 gods n kings. I will never forget it.

In fact, I have almost stopped playing civ series games in favor of FE:LH and AOW3, mostly AOW3 now because I actually lose cities from time to time to legitimate strategies instead of massive cheating. Its nice feeling to get my butt kicked occasionally.

Moderator Action: Don't make your arguments with another poster personal.

 

[Gort]

The AI doesn't get any more of a science bonus on deity than on other difficulties, all it gets is the four cheapest techs in the game for free.

The AI cheats in FE:LH and AOW3 as well.

 

[Lord Yanaek]

The best AIs always cheats. They do because they can't compete with humans yet. It took years and years of development to get an AI that can beat a human at chess game and chess is an extremely predictable, almost mathematical game, and math is what a computer does best.

So AI cheating is not an issue. The issue is when AI cheats in very visible ways, in ways that reduce player options (ever tried to get an early wonder at Deity), in ways that the player can just exploit and negate (AI starts with techs so player sends caravans and get tons of science), or in ways that encourages the player to use cheasy tactiques (AI starts with several workers so i'll just steal one).

 

[Gort]

I agree. I ended up modding the game to mitigate some of the worst problems with the AI - you can find the mods here and I'd suggest using them all to get the full experience.

My feelings were:

1. Starting social policies were unbalanced and AIs who picked bad ones played badly

2. The AI got too much happiness in the late game thanks to their unhappiness discount - this meant you could only flip cities using Tourism in very rare cases.

3. The AI used its units badly and had massive armies which were hard to maneuver. As a result they were awful in bad terrain and never got to the overpowered promotions that units could get once they had four or five promotions (EG: Range, logistics, march)

4. Units didn't fit their niches very well. Every good Civ 5 player knows that the way to take cities is to lower them to 0 HP with ranged attacks, then have a melee unit do the killing blow. Using melee units (outside of special ones like the battering ram and siege tower) to attack cities is for chumps and AIs. Siege weapons were trash until you got to artillery, which was godly. Ranged units were great until you got to Gatling Guns and then they were mediocre. This also had the effect that units would change their role as they got upgraded.

5. The AI had tons of technology in the early game which meant you never got any early wonders, but you could pass them mid-game and they'd be technologically backwards in the late-game. Part of this had to do with how the National College was too good and the AI was bad at building it.

-----

So, the solutions I modded in were:

1. Boosted up the starting policy trees so they were all worthwhile. This helped the AI because it meant they could be competitive no matter what they picked at the start of the game.

2. I gave the AI a flat happiness bonus of 30 at the start of the game (it was originally 15) but removed its unhappiness discount - on Deity the AI was only getting 36% of the unhappiness a player was! As a result they don't need to worry about happiness early-game, but don't have 80 excess happiness in the late game.

3. I removed the AI's bonus to unit production and discounted unit maintenance, but gave them tons of free promotions. Result is AI units are badasses, but they're generally less numerous than they were. When the AI remembers to shoot, a double-attacking range 3 composite bowman can really sting. Fewer, more powerful units also means the AI gets hung up on terrain less often.

4. I made it so units keep the same niche throughout the game. Ranged units always have range 2 (this meant making the Gatling Gun, Machine Gun and Bazooka range 2 and reducing their melee defense) and siege units always have range 3 and indirect fire. I straight-up buffed infantry units by giving them the 50% combat bonus against cities promotion (siege) for free, so it's actually scary when the AI comes at your city defended by a single composite bowman with a horde of six warriors.

5. I removed the AI's free technologies at game start, but increased their science discount to 30% (it used to be 15%). This means you've got a chance of getting early wonders, but the AI stays competitive in science the whole game instead of just having an early headstart. I also nerfed the National College down to a flat +10 science - nice to have, but not something you have to beeline every game, and not basically a player buff over the AI.

The result is a game where you generally don't have to play on as high a difficulty to get a challenge, I think. Try 'em out and see what you think.

 

[Minor Annoyance]

3. I removed the AI's bonus to unit production and discounted unit maintenance, but gave them tons of free promotions. Result is AI units are badasses, but they're generally less numerous than they were. When the AI remembers to shoot, a double-attacking range 3 composite bowman can really sting. Fewer, more powerful units also means the AI gets hung up on terrain less often.

That's what I always wanted. Giving them more units just gave them more cannon fodder and slowed you down but didn't stop you.

 

[Gort]

Yeah, I always thought the bonuses to AI army size were a lot more suited to Civ 4 than Civ 5. In Civ 5, quality of units matters a lot more than their number due to the limited space on the front line.

 

[Manannan]

I find it troubling that I see nothing to suggest that victory conditions are being tweaked. Am I blind, or can I expect this:

Spoiler :

to continue to happen?

 

[Gort]

Yeah, those ruins are a bit good. I remember getting three levels of purity through archaeology alone in my last game. Made it a bit of a walkover.

You can always turn off contact victory in the meantime, of course. Maybe a mod fixes the ruins.

 

[Manannan]

Eh, the issue is it isn't just contact that needs to be adjusted, this is just me posting a very obvious "something is broken here" example. The affinity victories need to be rebalanced as well, as even with other aspects of the game being fixed I'm going to be annoyed to no end if t200 victories continue to be the norm post-patch.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Simply having 1 from ruins should stop you from getting another.

 

[Haggbart]

Eh, the issue is it isn't just contact that needs to be adjusted, this is just me posting a very obvious "something is broken here" example. The affinity victories need to be rebalanced as well, as even with other aspects of the game being fixed I'm going to be annoyed to no end if t200 victories continue to be the norm post-patch.

Agreed. Right now the pacing of normal speed feels more like "quick" in CiV. Another problem is you never get to use the outer tech ring units/buildings (and don't get me started on the wonders...) at all before the game is over.

 

[Gort]

Agreed. Right now the pacing of normal speed feels more like "quick" in CiV. Another problem is you never get to use the outer tech ring units/buildings (and don't get me started on the wonders...) at all before the game is over.

If you play with mods to reduce trade routes (I use "weaker trade" but there are plenty more) the game takes a lot longer - building the victory wonders takes a lot longer, for example.

 

[Japper007]

I'm glad to see they picked up on some of the most glaring issues. I'm looking forward to having an actual challenge devil:that's not to say that steamrolling isn't fun though).

Though I agree with some others here that victories should be looked at too. Contact being the most obvious, you can win with just two techs/lucky ruin digs. Some of the victories are extremely tedious, like moving around those stupid earthling settlers.

 

[Haggbart]

If you play with mods to reduce trade routes (I use "weaker trade" but there are plenty more) the game takes a lot longer - building the victory wonders takes a lot longer, for example.

Yeah, the tweak to TRs in the patch will probably make the pacing better. But the late game stuff will still be little utilized because it too will take a lot longer to reach (and produce).

 

[Manannan]

Agreed. Right now the pacing of normal speed feels more like "quick" in CiV. Another problem is you never get to use the outer tech ring units/buildings (and don't get me started on the wonders...) at all before the game is over.

I made a thread about it earlier (here) and I think the general consensus was that games need to last longer. Always so sad when you discover something like the Augmentary building quest (holy crap the yields) only to realize you're never ever going to build it in 99% of games.

Edit: and of course no sooner do I post this than I realize you're the first poster in that thread. Preachin to the choir.

 

[Gort]

Yeah, the tweak to TRs in the patch will probably make the pacing better. But the late game stuff will still be little utilized because it too will take a lot longer to reach (and produce).

Yeah, the affinity victories should probably be pushed back to Affinity 16 and Contact victory needs a big look-over as well.

Anyone else in the boat where you kinda want to play again but don't want to until the patch hits?

 

[Paszczak]

So the patch is going to fix...

• units
• quests
• health
• virtues
• sponsors
• affinities
• covert ops
• difficulty levels
• trade routes
• stations
• tooltips
• interface
• general ai
• tactical ai
• game crashing for no reason (?)
• game not displaying on new monitors (?!)
• multiplayer not working (?!?)

Just a minor patch guys, no biggie. It's not like every single feature of the game is broken and needs work.

I mean, the intro cinematic is working correctly and doesn't need a balance pass...

 

[Ryoga]

you forgot modding availability for certain things, they are going to fix that too.

 

[Gort]

So the patch is going to fix...

• units
• quests
• health
• virtues
• sponsors
• affinities
• covert ops
• difficulty levels
• trade routes
• stations
• tooltips
• interface
• general ai
• tactical ai
• game crashing for no reason (?)
• game not displaying on new monitors (?!)
• multiplayer not working (?!?)

Just a minor patch guys, no biggie. It's not like every single feature of the game is broken and needs work.

I mean, the intro cinematic is working correctly and doesn't need a balance pass...

You HOPE that's what it's going to fix

 

[JosEPh_II]

No date yet?

JosEPh