Upward Pressure On Wages

[Zardnaar]

I'd say social justice is an outcome that I find functional.

But the fact that you think that anti-racism efforts are insincere, that use troll logic and only seek optics without functional outcome is concerning. Do you think they have an ulterior motive or what?

I see it as a contradiction.

Mass migration undercuts wages which tends to fall on social groups middle class and above liberals profess to care about.

Here the right and far left are pro immigration, the traditional Labour left against it along with the hard right.

Mass migration. Shortages of housing is a massive side effect and stagnant wages plus unskilled migrants being used in low productivity jobs.

Very few people seem to care about skilled migrants eg doctors, nurses, tradespeople, engineers etc. We should probably speed up rubber stamping their visas and overhaul visa laws and exploitive labour practices. Eg asset stripping and jail time for wage theft, stripping citizenship and deportation if applicable.

And if assets have been hidden eg under family names well lots more jail time under slavery charges.

One can actually look at when the visa laws were overhauled, increased migration and rapidly escalating proper prices which has priced out the poor and young.

I can sell my house here and buy an average priced house in the UK with 100k left over. My house is less than the average NZ house as I live in one of the cheaper areas.

 

[Akka]

I'd say social justice is an outcome that I find functional.

Describing everything as racism doesn't give social justice as an outcome, much less a functional social justice. It's empty posturing that falls flat when digging deeper, nothing else.

But the fact that you think that anti-racism efforts are insincere, that use troll logic and only seek optics without functional outcome is concerning. Do you think they have an ulterior motive or what?

Way to distort everything just like you distort definition.
True anti-racism as an effort is good. Using whacky and absurd definitions of racism that basically means everything under the sun is racist, without checking if it conforms with the actual concepts of what racism is and what makes it bad, and using it as a bludgeon to try to hammer any opposition with, is not.

I don't think it's about "ulterior motive" (though I think the unconscious desire to feel better about oneself and to show oneself in a good light to peer is a massive factor), I think it's just an internalization of a discourse that has reached such level it ends up in an inability to notice blatant contradictions.

 

[Senethro]

I see it as a contradiction.

Mass migration undercuts wages which tends to fall on social groups middle class and above liberals profess to care about.

Here the right and far left are pro immigration, the traditional Labour left against it along with the hard right.

Mass migration. Shortages of housing is a massive side effect and stagnant wages plus unskilled migrants being used in low productivity jobs.

Very few people seem to care about skilled migrants eg doctors, nurses, tradespeople, engineers etc. We should probably speed up rubber stamping their visas and overhaul visa laws and exploitive labour practices. Eg asset stripping and jail time for wage theft, stripping citizenship and deportation if applicable.

And if assets have been hidden eg under family names well lots more jail time under slavery charges.

One can actually look at when the visa laws were overhauled, increased migration and rapidly escalating proper prices which has priced out the poor and young.

I can sell my house here and buy an average priced house in the UK with 100k left over. My house is less than the average NZ house as I live in one of the cheaper areas.

The problem I have is that everything you describe happens anyway, whether there is immigration or not. So to me the concern about immigration and immigrants looks insincere or misguided. (or having an underlying agenda of preventing extremely non-racist cultural dilution)

Why don't we address worker exploitation and housing shortages directly, instead of only using the tools the neoliberals say are permitted?

 

[Zardnaar]

The problem I have is that everything you describe happens anyway, whether there is immigration or not. So to me the concern about immigration and immigrants looks insincere or misguided. (or having an underlying agenda of preventing extremely non-racist cultural dilution)

Why don't we address worker exploitation and housing shortages directly, instead of only using the tools the neoliberals say are permitted?

Here it's reached emergency levels. Most unaffordable in the OECD.

Labour campaigned on it and failed. They had the money but there's no spare capacity in the building industry.

Central government can only do so much as local councils can tie things up.

As for multiethnic I think we're good on that. 40% of Auckland wasn't born here.

Even with border closures returning kiwis have to live somewhere and something like 150k of them turned a bad situation into a catastrophe.

Neo libs probably win election here in 2026 so any fixes have to be locked in so they can't dismantle it.

5-7 years but people are assuming the border will reopen by then.

https://i.stuff.co.nz/life-style/ho...-to-seven-years-to-fix-housing-supply-problem

 

[Senethro]

Describing everything as racism doesn't give social justice as an outcome, much less a functional social justice. It's empty posturing that falls flat when digging deeper, nothing else.

Way to distort everything just like you distort definition.
True anti-racism as an effort is good. Using whacky and absurd definitions of racism that basically means everything under the sun is racist, without checking if it conforms with the actual concepts of what racism is and what makes it bad, and using it as a bludgeon to try to hammer any opposition with, is not.

I don't think it's about "ulterior motive" (though I think the unconscious desire to feel better about oneself and to show oneself in a good light to peer is a massive factor), I think it's just an internalization of a discourse that has reached such level it ends up in an inability to notice blatant contradictions.

I disagree, but I have less than zero desire to argue definitions.

So consider this from another angle. What degree of enforcement of immigration law is acceptable and how much should it cost? Who has successfully prevented illegal immigration and not simply created an underclass that is subject to even greater exploitation through lack of protection?

I'm going to rhetorically say "Noone", but if anyone can offer an example please go for it. (Edit: Eh, reconsidered slightly. Lets compare Apples to Apples, and mainland nations with 60% land borders to similar.)

So, why do you want to pursue an unachievable and expensive policy? Supposedly on behalf of the working class but actually getting them to pay taxes to perform repression - a double theft, if you will.

 

[Zardnaar]

I disagree, but I have less than zero desire to argue definitions.

So consider this from another angle. What degree of enforcement of immigration law is acceptable and how much should it cost? Who has successfully prevented illegal immigration and not simply created an underclass that is subject to even greater exploitation through lack of protection?

I'm going to rhetorically say "Noone", but if anyone can offer an example please go for it.

So, why do you want to pursue an unachievable and expensive policy? Supposedly on behalf of the working class but actually getting them to pay taxes to perform repression - a double theft, if you will.

It's very hard here to work illegally without a visa. No one reputable will hire you.

Mostly it's ethnic based. Migrants exploit their own people who are ignorant of things like employment law.

Or they keep two sets of books. One for themselves one for the officials.

So cracking down on employers and exploiters seems obvious. See previous comments about asset seizure, slavery charges or revoking citizenship and deportation if applicable.

If they weren't so generous with the visas they also couldn't exploit them. The employers don't actually want to hire locals.

 

[Zardnaar]

Business leaders pro migration for some mysterious reason.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business...d-by-number-of-expats-planning-to-return-home

Passports very useful atm to enter.

Low unemployment bad. From employers PoV. Can't imagine why.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsroom.co.nz/too-many-people-have-jobs-say-employers?amp=1

 

[Senethro]

Business leaders pro migration for some mysterious reason.

https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/business...d-by-number-of-expats-planning-to-return-home

Passports very useful atm to enter.

Low unemployment bad. From employers PoV. Can't imagine why.

https://www.google.com/amp/s/www.newsroom.co.nz/too-many-people-have-jobs-say-employers?amp=1

So what course of action should be taken?

 

[Zardnaar]

So what course of action should be taken?

Short term less migration.

They never really studied how many people we could absorb. 25% population growth in 15 years or so.

Basically how many houses we build divide by 3 or 4. Or work out what growth rate we need and issue that many visa prioritizing what skills we need. Hell for some skills I would make the process essentially open border eg healthcare professionals, teachers, tradespeople. As long as those qualifications are recognized.

Those migrants get priority.

So work out how many visas we can do that's it total. Any increase in refugees cones off that total numbers.

Numbers get reviewed each year need more people open the tap. Need less turn it down. Capped at some ratio equal to houses built. At least short term.

 

[Senethro]

Short term less migration.

They never really studied how many people we could absorb. 25% population growth in 15 years or so.

Basically how many houses we build divide by 3 or 4. Or work out what growth rate we need and issue that many visa prioritizing what skills we need. Hell for some skills I would make the process essentially open border eg healthcare professionals, teachers, tradespeople. As long as those qualifications are recognized.

Those migrants get priority.

So work out how many visas we can do that's it total. Any increase in refugees cones off that total numbers.

Numbers get reviewed each year need more people open the tap. Need less turn it down. Capped at some ratio equal to houses built. At least short term.

I don't think its a contested point that the same size input will more greatly disrupt a small system than a large one, so NZ has some particular and unique issues. Perhaps it is fortunate then that NZ has a very large ocean doing much of its enforcement for it.

I don't think its very a useful comparison for mainland EU or US though. How greatly would you need to expand the police/surveillance state to have the same deterrent effect as an ocean?

 

[Lexicus]

That is true, but it is also very noticeable that wage pressure has been growing. Basically million of american went on an unorganized strike by refusing to return to very low-wage jobs. And the only way those jobs will be again staffed - the necessary ones will have to be staffed - is by paying more. Wages are rising.

Unfortunately it's likely that people in government there are looking at Reagan and Volcker's playbook even now and considering deliberately causing a recession to push down on those uppity workers.

I agree with you entirely, but I think many more factors than greatly restricted immigration are influencing this picture. The unwillingness of many low-wage workers to risk their lives for their jobs has more to do with it.

Nah, no one them period.

On the contrary, I'd gladly trade you for a migrant who isn't a fascist swine.

 

[Zardnaar]

I don't think its a contested point that the same size input will more greatly disrupt a small system than a large one, so NZ has some particular and unique issues. Perhaps it is fortunate then that NZ has a very large ocean doing much of its enforcement for it.

I don't think its very a useful comparison for mainland EU or US though. How greatly would you need to expand the police/surveillance state to have the same deterrent effect as an ocean?

USA they could dplit more to birder and crack down on employers. Get caught hiring illegals risk asset seizure.

It's the old push/pull factors.

 

[Joij21]

On the contrary, I'd gladly trade you for a migrant who isn't a fascist swine.

Oh please! You wouldn't even know what fascists really think about immigrants.

If I was truly fascist I'd be advocating for killing the migrants not deporting them.

But really you're nasty as hell.

The truth is people don't want limits in life, and they don't want illegals imposing those limits on them.

 

[Zardnaar]

In NZ the illegal immigrant thing makes no sense.

Get caught without a visa there was (pre Covid) a very good chance you get deported.

Outside if the Green party (8%) no one cared to much. An appeal to the immigration's minister might save you from deportation.

Illegal immigrant is mostly an overstayer or rarely doing a runner off a boat. No visa very difficult/impossible to get a job or access any social services.

 

[Farm Boy]

They don't care about making sense. It's perceived self interest. Be real. Patience past a point is overrated.

 

[Zardnaar]

They don't care about making sense. It's perceived self interest. Be real. Patience past a point is overrated.

Pretty much self interested. Neo libs want cheap labour, the left cares about the dreamers.

EU not sealing the borders seemed to be influenced by cheap labour requirements.

 

[Farm Boy]

Duh.

 

[Zardnaar]

https://www.interest.co.nz/news/111...-years-and-low-house-price-growth-house-price

37 years for house prices to return to 2019 levels which were already high then.

Assuming houses increase at 3%. Last year it was 25%. And 4% wage growth.

Optimistic in both cases.

Hence opposition to migration. Need less pressure on house prices, upwards pressure on wages for the next generation+.

 

[Senethro]

Maybe markets are not a good method of housing provision.

 

[Zardnaar]

Maybe markets are not a good method of housing provision.

Not really no. At least with social housing.