Urban Warfare pre-repeating firearms

Except cannons would be a to maneuver in a built up area and extremely slow to move around. Not to mention horribly vulnerable to attack.

Unless you are leveling the entire town you are going to have to go house to house to take it by force. Obviously forcing a surrender or a decisive battle in the field is the preferable option.
 
That pesky "civilian casualties" thing can be hard to avoid if you use indiscriminate artillery fire

At the same time, heavy guns don't really destroy buildings - this is before the age of high explosives - they just make a mess of things. And it's even easier to hide and snipe from that
 
I do think its quite plausible for grenadiers of the 18-19th centuries having been used in early urban and siege warfare. Early hand grenades may have been primitive in their construction, but it's still a big boom in a closed space, not to mention the shrapnel flying around killing everything near it.

Or the attacker could just pound down at the ramparts/walls until they collapsed. The more modern forts such as the star forts designed by Vauban could stand quite decently against such artillery, but wooden fortifications and older design stone forts and castles were still put to good use around the world, and those could certainly be collapsed with concentrated solid shot barrages.

Early cannons for the most part used solid shot, or close range carcass shot, like a giant shotgun, where as howitzers and mortars had better trajectory for something like siege warfare, especially if you're the attacker, you could then just pound the enemy defenses over the ramparts with shrapnel ammunition before committing the infantry. For the defender, even simple cannons would be of great assistance in city settings, you could easily control an entire town square or an intersection with a few cannons and carcass shot. Also the defenders often used mines, basically gigantic bombs which they would ignite once substantial number of enemies had crossed into the kill zone.

But then again, such defensive forts were usually built away from major residential areas, in order to control the ground and I guess avoid collateral damage in a way.

Then if the forts were taken or armies defeated in the field, a treaty was usually signed ending the hostilities, and sparing e.g. the capital city from a bloody battle. At least in the 18th century, it was a widespread practice in European warfare to actually have your diplomats engaged in peace talks and diplomacy at the same time when swords are doing their work.

That might seem odd when you think about the total war that modern warfare really has become these days, a fight to the finish if possible towards an unconditional surrender, a ceasefire agreement, and then both forces stand down, while keeping readiness, and a final treaty is signed to end hostilities. However off the top of my head in the 100 days campaign of Napoleon the 7th Coalition really was determined to crush Napoleon once and for all, and not to negotiate with him at all.

If any civilians, peasants, craftsmen, guerrillas etc... were huddling inside a defended fort and the fort commander refused to surrender the fort (sometimes there were even conditions allowing the defending army retreat intact from the fort) to a besieging army, thereby forcing the attacker to commit his troops into a bloody attack, the defenders could expect scant mercy. This type of thing happened a few times in the Peninsular war I believe in the sieges near the Portuguese-Spanish border. It's a pretty ancient "rule" in warfare, hearkening back to to the Middle Ages.

Problems were often more profoundly logistical in the way that hand grenades weren't always available for siege warfare and such. They weren't exactly produced on mass, like they were in the industrial era by the time of the world wars, when the grenade truly became an integral part of an infantryman's arsenal. All weaponry was essentially hand manufactured until the end of the Napoleonic wars.

I guess the armies and generals of the time didn't really value the hand grenades all too highly, when you consider how powerful the artillery of the day really became when employed properly. It was in most cases more valuable to have working cannons supplied with shot and powder, than to have a supply of hand grenades.
 
I do think its quite plausible for grenadiers of the 18-19th centuries having been used in early urban and siege warfare. Early hand grenades may have been primitive in their construction, but it's still a big boom in a closed space, not to mention the shrapnel flying around killing everything near it.

I think someone mentioned it earlier in the thread (I may be mistaken), but by the time period we're talking about, grenadiers had really ceased their function of, well, throwing grenades, and instead just became a more "elite" corps of men. The grenadiers were originally chosen for their height and strength, due to the fact that early grenades were rather large and unwieldy, needing a tall, strong man, to throw it a distance. The choosing of large men continued through the years while the grenade was slowly phased out, leaving you with a regiment of some of the strongest men in the army, i.e. the "elite" troop.
 
I do think its quite plausible for grenadiers of the 18-19th centuries having been used in early urban and siege warfare. Early hand grenades may have been primitive in their construction, but it's still a big boom in a closed space, not to mention the shrapnel flying around killing everything near it.
Grenades were very rarely in the 18th-19th centuries (with some exceptions very early or late in the period), to the extent that during the korea war, an improvised hand grenade was referred to as a "new invention". More efficient firearms (i.e. flintlock) and improved drill made them largely useless.

While, yes, throwing a bomb into a confined space would be effective, grenades of the time were big, heavy and very dangerous. It would have been improbable to use them on any notable scale in an assault.
 
There was always the high risk-reward option of the flying column where practical.
 
That said, almost every successful (in getting over the walls) assault I have read about seems to have devolved into a brutal disorganized mess without any real details of what happened.

Exactly. In the close confines of a city, drill becomes almost useless. In an alley, a small group can charge with a bayonet and get there before the second volley. On balconies, people can swap firing positions and have people doing nothing but reloading and watching their backs. Urban warfare would quickly turn into many, many small skirmishes based on positions of resistance.

During the Mexican-American war, the storming of the Forts outside of Mexico city and the battle within might count. I read the series of historical novels by Shaara, and it seems that cover (like today) is of paramount importance, as well as hight for tactical use of cannon beyond just defending an axis of a few streets by occupying an intersection. Also important is the timing of the enemy reloading: If you can catch a charge when most of them are reloading have have their ramrods in the barrels, depending on how close you get, you receive an advantage.
 
That would be bad. Very bad. Either it explods and sprays everyone with wooden shrapnel or it works, and you have a red hot, 3ft long piece of sharpened metal flying at your narrow group of soldiers in a narrow charge formation in a narrow alley.
 
I don't think a typical infantry musket would explode. In a life or death situation were you only have a second to react, it would probably be better than nothing. I think a wooden ramrod would disintegrate in a cloud of little splinters and if I had to guess a metal ramrod would fly out and quickly be traveling end over end. Might be dangerous at close range. Either way the lead ball following the errant ramrod would probably still be of greater concern to the enemy.

And it probably happened a lot too.
 
That would be bad. Very bad. Either it explods and sprays everyone with wooden shrapnel or it works, and you have a red hot, 3ft long piece of sharpened metal flying at your narrow group of soldiers in a narrow charge formation in a narrow alley.
The ramrod would shoot out. I recall reading numerous times that inexperienced troops would forget to remove their ramrods and shoot them. It would lose speed so quickly that it would likely be pointless outside of point-blank, not become a spinning blade of death.
 
Exactly, outside of point blank. I guess having them almost right ontop of you counts as point blank. Perhaps you charge before RAmrods?
 
I guess all that is left is Sniping, Indian charges, and distraction-flank (hey, exactly like modern times except a quite slower!)

Sniping: You hide behind cover and attempt to kill someone who is just uncovered enough to be vurnable to a well-placed bullet.

Indian Charges: Your group froms two squads. One of them rises and fires a volley while the others sprint ahead for more cover. The foward squad presents bayonets behind cover and might fire while the back squad moves up. Repeat and possible switch.

Distraction-Flank: Like Indian charges, but your distaction pulls sentries attention of other alleys, hopefully opening up a gap in their defense.


For buildings, I guess that multiple Pistols might work. You can hold two at a time, you can throw them to stun people when used, and you can also have a sword. Probably works best for officers already with a sword (probably can take down three if by surprise: Fire at the furthest away, stab the person right infront, then duck and toss the used pistol at the third person)


EDIT: This is all stuff from my own thought-experiments. So if Dachs finished researching, I guess he can help us get a really good picture other than 'confusing' and 'modern-style tactics'
 
Perhaps you charge before RAmrods?

Or immediately after they fire a volley, being that the reloading process would begin there.

But that's assuming everyone is loading and firing in unison. Out in the open field they'd be using alternating ranks with one firing and others loading thus the window between volleys would be pretty small. In a city or fortification, I'd assume there'd be more shooting at will than volley fire. Maybe even some kind of "fire bucket" system where loaded muskets are passed up to the line and vice versa to be reloaded.
 
That depends, there were three primary modes of fire used throughout Europe:
volley fire, where all troops fired at once, bringing maximum firepower to bear at an instant
fire by ranks, where each rank fires in sequence resulting in more regular but less powerful volleys
platoon fire, which the British are famous for implementing has near continuous fire moving along the line. As an aside, where there other armies that made extensive (and effective) use of this? Or was it primarily a British thing (Perhaps related to the extensive training for an ordinary infantryman).

All three would be used by the same regiment in a single battle (the platoon fire was devastating on french columns marching in to attack, volley fire was devastating against a charge at close range, and ranks were often used to ensure that some troops remained ready to fire (i.e. when in square facing cavalry you always want some muskets to respond).

Odds were that, at least by the napoleonic wars, you were getting hit by at least one volley in a charge as you were expected to fire every 15-20 seconds.

In an urban area platoon fire would not be viable, but during warly stages or wherever a small group of men could be gathered together, a defender could make use of some voley fire, but in the chaos following a break through the outer defensive line, most combat would likely be every man for himself. The plan was, in any case I know of, to hold the walls or other outer fortifications. Once they were broken it was almost certain defeat. As compared to, modern days with much more flexible battlefields and defence in depth, both in the open and in urban areas.
 
I was going to say Fredericksburg but:

I wouldn't count Fredricksburg. The Confederate position was outside the city, IIRC.

Interesting about the use of artillery against cities... Old style artillery couldn't destroy
buildings, and created conditions which aided the defenders. Modern artillery/bombing
can destroy buildings, and creates conditions which aid the defenders (e.g. Stalingrad).
 
While the damage done by artillery creates conditions aid defenders, it is essential to support attackers by breaking prepared strong points. A machinegun hiding in rubble is deadly, but less deadly than a machinegun fortified in a structure with a prepared field of fire.

And as far as I am aware, bombardment of cities (separate from attacks on walls and specific defensive positions), historically was more about fear and generally harassing the inhabitants into giving up, rather than for a battle in the city.
 
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