USA v. CSA (Continued from Tea Party thread)

[Communisto]

With the way things worked out, it seems that the south should be glad they were liberated.

Or that the north should regret keeping them

So far I've come to the conclusion that the Union won, the Union deserves to be right.

EDIT: isnt there an eternally bumpable thread for this already in the history forum?

 

[JohnRM]

And the north had the Constitutional right to beat the south into the ground like the traitors they were.

So if I seceed to establish a racist, genocidal, fascist dictatorship, do I have the higher moral ground?

Yeah, because Union wasn't a racist and genocidal dictatorship.

We didn't just wipe millions of native americans off the face of the Earth or massacre civilians from one corner of the globe to another in various wars without regard. We freed the blacks after the Civil War and gave them equal rights and social status. We didn't treat them like second class citizens or anything. We aren't a bunch of racist [butt]holes about mexican/south american immigrants today. Nah...not the great Union!

 

[JohnRM]

So you're arbitrarily ignoring all of the crap the traitor states pulled before the Fort Sumter incident just so you can pin the blame on the Federals. Good for you. I fail to see how the federal government was a "foreign power" in its own territory.

I don't sympathize with either side in the conflict. I recognize the right of people to make their own destinies, however, which allows me to forgive the act of secession, all else being equal. I won't forgive slavery or many other crimes against humanity that the South was responsible for, but the Union was no measure better than the South. Both sides were ruled by racist, genocidal white men.

Has no standing in American law.

American law has no standing with my ethics and sense of right or wrong.

 

[Masada]

We didn't just wipe millions of native americans off the face of the Earth or massacre civilians from one corner of the globe to another in various wars without regard. We freed the blacks after the Civil War and gave them equal rights and social status. We didn't treat them like second class citizens or anything. We aren't a bunch of racist [butt]holes about mexican/south american immigrants today. Nah...not the great Union!

Because recognising the right of the Confederacy to continue to be oppressive slaving bastards in perpetuity is a good thing?

 

[Dachs]

EDIT: isnt there an eternally bumpable thread for this already in the history forum?

No, these dumb threads are always in OT, because as bad as WH gets, it doesn't get stupid in this particular way.

 

[bhsup]

It's a real pity the Constitution didn't explicitly grant the Federal government the power to control secession, automatically making it a State power via the 10th Amendment.

/me prepares for the Dachs downvote!

 

[Dachs]

You were, in fact, preempted.

 

[bhsup]

Wow, you did that within the same minute that I posted! Impressive!

 

[JohnRM]

Because recognising the right of the Confederacy to continue to be oppressive slaving bastards in perpetuity is a good thing?

That isn't the point. The point is that no one can honestly claim that the Union is somehow morally superior.

 

[FriendlyFire]

To start, I willfully abandoned the label of libertarian publicly, quite a while ago, already. Beyond that, I qualified my remark with use of the phrase, "in this incident", which marks the beginning of the war. Even so, the legislatures representing the people of those lands decided against the presence of a foreign power within their own lands. There is no wrong in that.

LMAO

The American Indians want there country back.

 

[JohnRM]

LMAO

The American Indians want there country back.

Once the vast majority of the population has been born into that land that you are speaking of (whichever it may be) that ceases to be the case. At this point, the vast majority of people living here were born here. Now, if this were 1492 and there were discussion on whether white people should settle the continent, I would be absolutely against it. If it were 1620, I would support the removal of the Pilgrims from Plymouth Colony. But, it is now 2010, we're established and this is as much our home now as it was the native tribes, though it isn't a stretch at all to say that we don't respect it nearly as much.

 

[Patroklos]

I have participated in several of these threads over the past months and each time my position remains entirely intact without even the slightest suggestion of rational rebuttal. I suggest the mods lock all such threads until such time Cutlass or his clones come up with something original and relevant to the topic.

So far this thread has not produced either.


Moderator Action: Threads don't exist for your benefit only. Warned for trolling.
Please read the forum rules: http://forums.civfanatics.com/showthread.php?t=422889

 

[Miles Teg]

That isn't the point. The point is that no one can honestly claim that the Union is somehow morally superior.

Err, yeah, it probably was. Let's assume for the sake of the argument that the North had no right to suspend civil liberties and force states to remain with in the the union. Let's take it as a given that Lincoln and his gang was no less racist than the South. Let's basically just say that the North was the same as the South.

Because of the slavery issue, the North was still better. Even if every Republican exhibited a sense of hostile neutrality towards blacks, that's still better than wanting to enslave them all. And while it's not PC to say this anymore, the Confederacy was founded on the principal of black slavery. It was encoded into the the very Constitution of that misbegotten rebellion. The Vice-President himself said that this was the founding principal of his new "country".

No matter how ugly the Union was, the Confederacy was worse.

 

[Dachs]

I suggest the mods lock all such threads until such time Cutlass or his clones come up with something original and relevant to the topic.

Dude, Cutlass doesn't even like me enough to invite me into his fanclub elitist social group Adult OT. The only opinions that I know we share are USA #1 and traitors suck.

 

[JohnRM]

No matter how ugly the Union was, the Confederacy was worse.

Without a doubt. When it comes to treatment of blacks and the actual strength of democracy in the country, the CSA was far worse. However, it was not my intention to sympathize with either side. My initial comment was with regard to the Fort Sumter incident, alone, and to who was responsible for the first overtly hostile act therein.

As the discussion evolved from there, my intention became to quell the noble Union myth that paints the South as evil and Lincoln as the second coming.

 

[Miles Teg]

John, that kind of touches in on an annoyance of mine with how the Civil War is taught in the class room. There's a perceived need to keep things "balanced" to avoid offending anyone, but balance seems to consist of heavy praise for Lincoln with maybe a reference to his occasional racism and potential civil rights abuses, and repetition of traitor talking points about "states rights" being the cause of the Civil War to "balance" things.

The only opinions that I know we share are USA #1 and traitors suck.

I thought you didn't have political opinions outside of those two.

 

[Dachs]

I thought you didn't have political opinions outside of those two.

Exactly...

 

[amadeus]

Because recognising the right of the Confederacy to continue to be oppressive slaving bastards in perpetuity is a good thing?

Don't assume that it would be allowed to continue in the Confederacy in perpetuity. Other countries peaceably abolished slavery, and the CSA would have been no different.

 

[Masada]

Don't assume that it would be allowed to continue in the Confederacy in perpetuity. Other countries peaceably abolished slavery, and the CSA would have been no different.

... if they were willing to go to war against their own countryman on the off chance Lincoln may have, you know, abolished the practice; I think we can safely conclude that it was kinda unlikely, or at least not in the same realm as the far more direct approach of simply crushing the Confederacy. We could make the same kind of arguments about the Nazis mellowing and allowing the poor surviving Slavs to be herded into big nature reserves instead of being simply killed. But I'm not sure that's a good outcome however you care to look at it. This isn't much different.

 

[Mr. Dictator]

Let's approach this from a modern perspective: wait, this is relevant to today's world and more than just butthurt southerners?