V1.15 BETA Release

[Marlor]

I've managed to find some time over the past week to play (part of) an epic game with the 1.13 patch, and I really like the corruption model that is used in 1.13.

Many of my long-standing issues with Civ3 were solved by the patch, and I have been enjoying the game immensely (despite a few bugs that I encountered).

However, from Tavis's post, it looks like we're back to the old corruption model in 1.15. I haven't seen a detailed comparison of 1.13 and 1.15 yet, but I'm desparately hoping that the corruption model hasn't changed much, because 1.13 was such an improvement over what came before it.

 

[warpstorm]

Originally posted by Salamandre

I disagree Padma. Our money goes to Firaxis , and they have to use it to improve the game. that means ALSO hiring beta testers, paying them and selling at the end a respectable product.


It takes us 2-3 days to test each "patch" and find the bugs in it. Is this SO hard for Firaxis to recruite pleb or moonsinger or whatever a few days and give us a decent game? Come on.

First a little explanation of how money in the game industry works. Firaxis was (probably, I'm not privy to their specific financials) fronted money to develop Conquests (develop, not improve) by Atari. They do not get any money (royalties) from the game sales until 3-6 months after they have 'paid back' the front money. They don't get any royalties if they don't 'pay back' the front money (this is the case for most game projects, BTW). The front money is typically given in increments based on them meeting milestones. If they miss a milestone, the publisher can hold back the money (or can the project).

Considering the time frame, Firaxis probably hasn't gotten their profit yet. Anything they are doing for now is coming out of hide.

Second, Firaxis does not "have to use it to improve the game". It's their money now (or it will be when they get it). They can do what they want with it. Many game companies do not support their products for nearly so long as Firaxis.

Third, testers don't fix bugs. All they can do is find them and document them. Hiring a handful of testers for a few weeks will help, but not as much as you'd think. Atari, Firaxis, and Breakaway all had testers on C3C, in addition to the beta testers. Bugs still got through. Would more have helped? Of course, but there is a point of diminishing returns.

Most of the beta testers did it because they wanted to make C3C a better game. Offering them money wouldn't have changed the quality of the work they did.

Ultimately, even if a bug is found and documented, that doesn't mean that it can be fixed and still meet schedule. There are only so many programmers on the project. This is the critical resource. While game programmers work cheaper than their business counterparts, programmer time is expensive.

 

[warpstorm]

I thought it was spelled out up front that the beta patches wouldn't go through Atari's localization process.

 

[E-Raser]

Following this discussion I'd like to add the following.
First I think it would be the best to release a bug free product. This would be as nice as a world without wars, deseases and earthquakes. But as well not realistic.
So I do not mind about even testing patches. It is oviously free for everyone to decide wheather to install a BEATA patch or not. Furthermore I like the idea of cooperation between Firaxis and this community of gamers, because this is the most constructive way to make a game suiting the gamers intersests. Only this dialogue is the best possibility to get the game as close to the players whishes as it should be. Who is not willing to be part of this process can easily deny and so there's in my opinion no one cheated or "used".
Nevertheless, as happened with the latest 1.15BETA:
AT LAST IT SHOULD WORK! It does not for german and seems to have the same bug for french versions. So I guess unless the US version it does not work at all. Simply the *.ini files do not convert properly to the language specific spellings. This is something which should have been figured out in advance, this is what I think about. So if there appear some not so obvious bugs in a BETA release, so what? Can happen. But this is so obvious, that it is appearing the first time after you install the patch and start a game. I wonder why the non US customers can not rely on the same support. Was already seen with the PTW patches before. The non US players had to wait significantly longer.
THIS SUCKS!
By the way, the new construct of "old" Europe including e.g. Poland and the Baltic States will have more citizens than USA.
*** Culture flip LOL ***
So how about that???

 

[warpstorm]

Like I said one post above, I heard that the beta patches won't be localized. I assume that this would take too much effort at this point and slow down the bug fixing process. I'm sure that as the patch is finalized, the localization team at Atari will make sure that they work for ROTW versions also.

 

[Longasc]

I agree with warpstorm's postings.

According to this, it is okay to release buggy software. It has been perfectly explained why.

Sure, that is how software developement works. The principle of finishing milestones, meet deadlines - this is the way to go nowadays.

But this is in no way an excuse for

-> releasing very buggy software
Now, no software is really without any bugs. But the quality of C3C without any patch is not satisfying.

-> the final update is scheduled for June.
5 month only. Quite disappointing for those who already bought the game. Not everybody will still be interested in Civ3 Conquests in 5 month.

Creative Assembly introduced a lot of really BAD bugs with Medieval: Viking Invasion add-on. They did not want to fix it at all, and said it was Activisions decision. Finally, after many protests and formal complaints, a patch was announced. There are still open issues. I installed the game for testing the patch, I played several other games during the several months of wait.


I do not want to give anyone the guilt, and Civ3 is doing far better than CA's Medieval with already offering beta patches.


But this attitude of bringing still quite buggy soft on the market is really questionable!

Microsoft is often blamed for the security holes in their software and whatever. I did not notice too many of them myself, but MS is getting bashed over and over.

Now, we do not want to bash Firaxis - but the quality of the release version of C3C is reduced by many minor and some major bugs.

I still love Civ and Firaxis, but this is just not right. Civ4 will probably be an open Beta for months after the initial release? Uh...

 

[ETO_Peregrine]

Originally posted by E-Raser
Following this discussion I'd like to add the following.
First I think it would be the best to release a bug free product. This would be as nice as a world without wars, deseases and earthquakes. But as well not realistic.

No, no software is without some defects. Neither is there a such thing as a perfect meal. But if a restaurant serves me a raw steak when I ask for medium well and the salad is rotten, I am going to complain. The expectation is that if I did not receive what I ordered, the problem will be taken care of or I have no obligation to pay. However, unlike one would at a restaurant, we have paid for C3C up front. Then we found out that major parts of the product are broken or missing. If I get bad food at a restaurant, of course I'm going to volunteer to the staff what's wrong with it, but I would not be satisfied if they said "we're involving our customers in the cooking process. We know this food is bad, so just eat a little and then give us directions on how we might improve it. We'll get back to you in a couple weeks."

I don't go a restaurant to ponder the culinary arts, I go because I am hungry and the menu advertises steaks cooked to order and fresh salad.

I will not stop playing Civ because of these problems because I love the game. But I am continually frustrated that Firaxis is not delivering what they adverise.

 

[Cabbit]

PorthosPirate:

As I understand it some of the older scenario's for CIV, PTW, and C3C 1.00 will not run in the patchs due to the script and Label files having changes.

This is royally annoying... and must say that I would like this to be change by the final version... or I want Firaxis to provide a file converter that will make old scenaries, or at the very least, old C3C scenarios compatible w/ the patch.

(I was playing a C3C scenario when I got the wierd labels, I played through I about a hundred turns of the scenario and got the program to crash about 6 times plus two times where my computer all of a sudden restarted)

 

[Comraddict]

Is Firaxis team or only Tavis behind these patches??

What is next? CFC members making patches?

 

[PorthosdPirate]

Originally posted by Cabbit
PorthosPirate:


This is royally annoying... and must say that I would like this to be change by the final version... or I want Firaxis to provide a file converter that will make old scenaries, or at the very least, old C3C scenarios compatible w/ the patch.

(I was playing a C3C scenario when I got the wierd labels, I played through I about a hundred turns of the scenario and got the program to crash about 6 times plus two times where my computer all of a sudden restarted)

Was it a user created C3C scenario or one of the Conquests? I have played most of the Conquest games with the patches and have not seen any script issues. With that said why should Firaxis correct something that a user created? Firaxis does not warrant the user created scenario and has no reason to change their text files that were changed for the epic game and the conquest scenarios. I am working on a mod that my friends and family play and already I have had to alter the text files because I am using the beta patches and they are not. However, when they get the final patch I'll already have the corrected files for them. If this is a user mod you had problems with alert the author so that he can make corrections. If it was from Firaxis then I suggest that you alert them to the issue. Others who do not venture to fan sites may have the same issue as your self.

 

[PorthosdPirate]

Ok, I read the readme and other than the corruption issues (which are not new to the CIV games) what other major issue is there? I see some corrections to MP and others areas but I do not see anything that indicates Firaxis failed to deliver on anything. Is your game unplayable? Tribes 2, now that was a game out the door that was unplayable. C3C has some annoyances but you can play the game with out major issues. Nothing is perfect and instead of complaining that your video game does not work and you want a new toy right now you should be happy that Tavis and others are working on correcting the issues that have been found and in a short amount of time a resolution for all will be presented.

 

[akots]

Originally posted by PorthosdPirate
... Is your game unplayable? ... C3C has some annoyances but you can play the game with out major issues. ...

This is the excellent point! Whoever is complaining for the buggy software cannot say that it was impossible to play it. The game starts, plays, and end without major crashes and other problems. For the international versions, cracker had made several points .

What we think are bugs, are not bugs indeed. The rules of the game are very complicated and one set of rules really overlaps the other set of rules sometimes in a barely relevant areas. What you think of a bug is some discrepancy between what is expected by you and what actually happens in the game. What developers are interested in is in fixing those discrepancies between what most (or large pool) of the players expect. For this, a team of CFC size is very useful. That is why we should play, notice these discrepancies and report them. It would be great if developers will read then and fix whatever is possible to fix. We get a better game and they get better money. And invest in Civ4.

If this does not happen, then C3C would be just an ordinary game. I don't think there is much disccusion about the rules of the action games apart that something like: "Wow! This gun really rocks, got that monster brains smashed all over my windshield! Thanks, developers!" No offense for action game addicts meant. I do play some myself once in a while.

 

[warpstorm]

Originally posted by Comraddict
Is Firaxis team or only Tavis behind these patches??

Tavis is the producer in charge of Civ development at Firaxis.

 

[Grotius]

I agree with the preceding couple of posters -- C3C is a fabulous and exceedingly complex game, and of all its dozens (hundreds?) of features, there is one (corruption) that isn't working completely as intended, and a few other minor glitches. For me, the corruption issues barely dent my enjoyment of the game.

 

[Commander Bello]

O.k., guys... now just stop bashing poor Cabbit.

What he initially stated was:

This is royally annoying... and must say that I would like this to be change by the final version... or I want Firaxis to provide a file converter that will make old scenaries, or at the very least, old C3C scenarios compatible w/ the patch.

And he answered a posting from PorthosdPirate regarding that the latest beta patches could cause the conquests to malfunction.

As you will find in this thread Tavis agreed that there are problems with the ROW (rest of the world) versions of C3C and the patches.

Since not all foreign (non-US customers) are using the English version of C3C, using such a beta patch really can make the conquests corrupt.
Regarding that, Cabbits quoted sentence from above is understandable and I agree (and as you may see, even Tavis does) that this should be finally solved.

Noone is good enough to avoid mistakes under any circumstances. That is true for Tavis, Firaxis, me, Cabbit, even the Pope.... and obviously it is true for some of you as well.

So, don't bash someone who is just frustrated that his game doesn't work anymore after he loaded a patch which was intended to improve the game!

Over the last weeks I got the impression that Tavis is doing his best to make the game work as good as it can be done with the current engine. For that, we should show him respect.
On the other hand, it has been delivered with bugs. The evidence for that is, that there are patches, even if they are betas at the moment.
So, please stop describing the situation as if it were the best one to be imagined. It is not, and that is a fact as well.

I, for my side, feel pity with anyone who downloads 5 MB - maybe just with a 56K modem - and then has to learn that it just makes things worse for his side. And I understand, that those people are getting angry.

 

[ETO_Peregrine]

Ok, one more rant and I'm done, I mean it.

I am a programmer and I know all about the emergent properties that pop up in a complex program. I know what a nightmare debugging can be, and that no program is released without defects.

Still, the issues that have had to be patched in all of the CivIII series, not just C3C, have left me totally bewildered. For example, Firaxis recently said that the corruption model they designed put the capital city at 0% corruption, and that it is how it is in 1.13+. How did no one at Firaxis notice until after two expansions and a bazillion patches that the capital had corruption (it was counted as one tile from the capital). Or if they did know, why wait that long to fix it? Sure, the capital only wasted a shield or two and lost 1-5 commerce, and that barely affected how the game is played, but the fact that this defect stayed in so long that it was assumed to be a feature shows that something is seriously wrong at Firaxis. Did the designer who wanted the capital to be at 0% corruption ever play the game?

FPS type games are simple in gameplay, but the internal mechanics are far more complex than Civ, which is essentially a wicked version of chess, at least on the SP side. Since Civ has no huge 3D worlds or simulated kinetics and such, the soul of the game is the rule set. If that rule set is poorly implemented, the game's quality suffers.

The depth of Civ's gameplay is exactly why great care should be taken to make sure the program works as designed. Since an FPS has shallow gameplay, defects come and go with few consequences. A game of Civ is time consuming and demands a lot of thought and attention, each "small" defect becomes more glaring.

When I play Civ, I play to immerse myself in a game where I'm king and I get to figure out how to conquer the world. I'm one of those players who has a story going in his head as he plays. I play my games as works of art. When a defect appears the story stops and I'm reminded that I'm not king, just a beta tester. If I wanted to test software I would go back to work instead of spending a quiet evening at home. It's because Civ is my favorite game that I'm upset when I see that Firaxis has bungled it.

If the fanboys think I'm just being whiney, that's fine. But unless my posting privileges are revoked, I reserve the right to complain to Firaxis that their product is defective.

 

[alja]

Do I need to have a degree now to play Civ3?

I mean with all the things to keep in mind about placing the city exactly there, in this order, but not before this and that...

I like to play and not sitting in front of the PC using a calculator and a lineal.

If you want to make the game harder, give the AI some more advantages or faster research but dont kill the players who do not have a degree in math and they found a city only because it seems to be a good place not considering the formulas in the background.

 

[alja]

Do I need to have a degree now to play Civ3?

I mean with all the things to keep in mind about placing the city exactly there, in this order, but not before this and that...

I like to play and not sitting in front of the PC using a calculator and a lineal.

If you want to make the game harder, give the AI some more advantages or faster research but dont kill the players who do not have a degree in math and they found a city only because it seems to be a good place not considering the formulas in the background.

 

[alja]

Do I need to have a degree now to play Civ3?

I mean with all the things to keep in mind about placing the city exactly there, in this order, but not before this and that...

I like to play and not sitting in front of the PC using a calculator and a lineal.

If you want to make the game harder, give the AI some more advantages or faster research but dont kill the players who do not have a degree in math and they found a city only because it seems to be a good place not considering the formulas in the background.

 

[ColdFever]

Originally posted by E-Raser
The latest 1.15BETA:
AT LAST IT SHOULD WORK! It does not for german and seems to have the same bug for french versions. So I guess unless the US version it does not work at all... This is something which should have been figured out in advance, this is what I think about...
THIS SUCKS!

Sorry, but Firaxis cannot do anything about that, this is because of Atari's handling.

Back in 2001 existed a 100% compatible German fan translation that could easily have handled English scenarios and open beta tests like this, unfortunately it was interdicted by Infogrames/Atari, even worse: Atari decided in their localization approach to change some directories instead of keeping and linking to the original data.

Because of this the fans in France, Italy, Germany and Spain have to live with a compatibility gap, you notice this most of the time you try loading sophisticated English scenarios that usually do not work on other language versions. The same is true for beta versions that have not been adjusted to the "twisted" EU versions.

So Firaxis only has two options to do a public beta:

- offer *fast* - pure English - beta patches directly

- offer *slow* multilingual beta patches indirectly via Atari, as each patch has to be localized (at least roughly) to avoid runtime errors because of the official localization twists

As CivFanatics is an English community and it is usually good to have fast responses, the first approach was selected to work as fast and efficiently as possible in this environment. But now with the protests from Europe perhaps the second approach will be used, even though this will slow down the progress noticeably and probably will reduce the extent of new content that could have been possible otherwise.