v10 feedback

The problem seems related to the Believers, but I don't have any ideas how to pinpoiny it further at the moment.

To clarify:
Did those endless turns start happening right after installing patch d/e?
Did you manage to get through several turns after all after applying patch d/e?

I skipped patch d) for the record, as I read the reports about the city-build-crash under Vista OS and waited for e) and I did a fresh install as usual then - removed PF, installed mainfile v10 again, then e) on it.

The loop happened right after completing my first turn under patch e), so no sucessful turns with that game under the new patch.

A new games runs without any trouble, BTW. I also checked, if the fact that I played the old save with my v10 of the leaderhead.xml, while e) uses the old v3, had an impact, but the loop also happens if I replace it with v10.
 
It seems my fix for hidden nationality causes problems with patch c saves. So you won't be able to continue that game under patch e. :(
 
1. I wonder if the Planetmind promotion can have an impact on the game at all in its current form - leaving the incompetent AI not knowing about FC stuff and eventual balance issues aside, is it technically possible to get an FC of 100? In my understanding this would mean that every tile which can have fungus on the map has fungus - that's very unlikely at best, but what happens with city tiles? They obviously can never become fungus tiles or do they just not count for the needed 100%?
Perhaps there should be a gradual bonus from FC=50 on or a smaller bonus when 60 or 75 is reached...I know, it isn't a clear and atmospherical as 100, but if it can't be reached...?

2. I experienced a weird graphical issue with the fungicide ressource - it is on a tile near the coast and the adjacent water tile has seafungus on it...and the fungicide plants seem to grow into the water (see picture)

3. Patch c) adds a rule that an Bunker from a Perimeter Defense gets automatically destroyed if the PD is lost, but I experienced at situation where this wasn't the case - load the following save and blow up Lal's PD in U.N. Haven City with the spy...the Bunker is still there, right after the mission and in the next turn as well.
 

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Had a bit more time to play Planetfall again with the latest patch and it plays pretty well, so far.

My earlier issues with the Terraformer/Hybrid-choices are somewhat remedied, since the AI declares war more often, not going Hybrid is more viable - the raw concentrated production in singular big cities is more powerful during war times. The Hybrid city sprawl is still good and powerful - but you clash more often with other people - and you have to prepare way earlier for wars as you don't have a single base that just pumps out units.

I still see Miriam (as AI) getting whacked, so a hardcore Terraform ecology seems not to work out that well for the AI, but one where you are a bit careful with your planet attitude works nicely - as I do now with Morgan (sort of a playstyle hovering between Enclosed and Terraform - of course, having the Manifold Nexus helps with that rather precarious balance - but that's fun!).

The general feel of the early to mid-game is pretty nice - I have the feeling that it breaks down a bit after getting to tech tier 5-6 or so, somewhere there seems to be a shift where it feels less polished, but I can't put my finger on the exact cause, so far (but it feels like something between the units and the expansion rates - somehow it doesn't flow as well as the stuff up to tech tier 4-5 or so).

It's by no means bad, just not quite as polished as the early game. Of course, this may also be due to the fact that the AI isn't grasping every concept (like seabases).

Finally, I noticed that the AI has quite a bit of reluctance to trade techs, way higher than in standard BTS (or does it just appear like that?). While I think it fits - especially for leaders like Miriam, Yang, Dierdre and Santiago - I think Zak should be a more of a tech trader with his "free information"-view (plus it's basically his "currency" and almost always helps him as he unlocks higher techs, which he'll still research faster), similarly a bit more for Lal. Morgan - can't say, as I'm playing the hell out of them now - for a change.

In any case: Thanks for putting all the work into the mod!

Cheers, LT.
 
1. I wonder if the Planetmind promotion can have an impact on the game at all in its current form

The Flowering Countes does not need to be 100% for this promotion to have an effect.
On the FC in general, hybrid forests and centauri preserves provide a bigger increase to the FC than fungus. But anyway, until I can get the AI to follow a hybrid strategy too, I feel there's no point yet in trying to balance the flowering counter effects certain stuff gives.

2. I experienced a weird graphical issue with the fungicide ressource

Yeah I'm aware. Those are just some random graphics I linked the resource to, because nothing fitting is available. (Nor do I have an idea myself what would look fitting for that resource...)

3. Patch c) adds a rule that an Bunker from a Perimeter Defense gets automatically destroyed if the PD is lost

It's the other way around: if the Bunker gets destroyed, the Perimeter Defense is too. Not sure it's worth spending the time coding the rare cases where the opposite happens. :dizzy:

The general feel of the early to mid-game is pretty nice - I have the feeling that it breaks down a bit after getting to tech tier 5-6 or so, somewhere there seems to be a shift where it feels less polished, but I can't put my finger on the exact cause, so far (but it feels like something between the units and the expansion rates - somehow it doesn't flow as well as the stuff up to tech tier 4-5 or so).

Yeah, the endgame is definitely less polished. Some reasons I can think of:
1) Most of the cool stuff is researched in the first half of the tree. It's hard to not fall into repetition the longer the tech tree gets.
2) The early game is always more challenging than the late game in any civ game, because by then you've built yourself a well-oiled empire which can withstand whatever challenge is thrown at it.
3) AI does not yet understand certain concepts.

Let's hope improved AI (including Hybrid<->Terraformer wars and Progenitor interference) will keep the game interesting and challenging longer.

Finally, I noticed that the AI has quite a bit of reluctance to trade techs, way higher than in standard BTS (or does it just appear like that?).

Were you able to trade with no one, or only with a couple factions?

While I think it fits - especially for leaders like Miriam, Yang, Dierdre and Santiago - I think Zak should be a more of a tech trader with his "free information"-view

I agree. Besides Zak being more willing to trade with other factions, I think the AIs should also be more willing to trade tech with Zak. That would require an SDK change though, and I've got no idea yet where in the SDK I could change this. ;)
 
Let's hope improved AI (including Hybrid<->Terraformer wars and Progenitor interference) will keep the game interesting and challenging longer.
Yeah, I also get the feeling that a bit of a problem is the development of units. In standard civ, you start out with a small choice and it broadens over the course of the game. In Planetfall, it broadens out a little more quickly, but then "folds" together again - in Civ, you start with galleys, at the end you have stealth destroyers, subs, carriers, missile destroyers.

In Planetfall, the carrier is all you really want (okay, it's more expensive than the cruiser... but it's still strange) - would be nice to have that variety, forcing you to have a well-balanced mix of foils, cruisers and carriers. On land, the infantry variety also goes down, because the Gravebringer is so good (before, you have helions, marines, drop troopers, cyborgs - then you only have mobile infantry and gravebringers).

It seems to exacerbate the endgame problem - because you not only get less new toys, it feels like you lose your toys (not to mention that the midgame units are just cooler - Plasmathrowers are more interesting than that gravebringer any day) - and all mobile land units are a single path (rover->(chopper->)hovertank->gravship) as well.

It would be nice to have more distinguished unit paths and roles for them. Also, due to the rather small spread of unit strengths, getting better units doesn't feel like a big accomplishment. I don't want to see the big spread of Civ (3 - 30+, which fits the "history of mankind thing" - whereas Planetfall fall has a rather tight spread that fits the progress over a small time scale of several hundred years), but slightly more distinct differences would also help to make it feel a bit better.
Were you able to trade with no one, or only with a couple factions?
Only with a single faction - University (IIRC) - with which I had the best relations. It is just strange to see other leaders that are cautious to pleased to you having a stack of techs - and you have a stack of techs (and I had better ones) - and no trading is going on - they only want to buy my techs with energy.

Cheers, LT.
 
The Flowering Countes does not need to be 100% for this promotion to have an effect.

:confused: Eh, that promotion has another effect beside +50% at FC=100? +1% for each 2 points on the FC or can the FC go beyond 100 (so 100% isn't 100, like it is in FFH with the AC) ?


On the FC in general, hybrid forests and centauri preserves provide a bigger increase to the FC than fungus.

Ok, so with CP and HF the fungus counter can reach 100 or go far beyond that without covering the entire map?


It's the other way around: if the Bunker gets destroyed, the Perimeter Defense is too. Not sure it's worth spending the time coding the rare cases where the opposite happens. :dizzy:

I would make the espionage operation I used more effective, so it is also the question if we want that.


Lord Tirian said:
Only with a single faction - University (IIRC) - with which I had the best relations. It is just strange to see other leaders that are cautious to pleased to you having a stack of techs - and you have a stack of techs (and I had better ones) - and no trading is going on - they only want to buy my techs with energy.

The current treshold is "pleased" for everyone to trade techs - however, reaching please does not always require excatly the same amount of "green points", because there are some hidden factor at work, which increase or decrease this amount (e.g. boni for liking peace in general or for better/worse rank things - though their impact is smaler then in standard BTS, I believe)
Enabling tech trade at cautious makes it very common and there is no in between setting - maybe except "cautious" with very restricted settings in regrad to monopoly techs or a limit on total traded techs in a game - the question is if we want that. other more sophisticated solutions would require SDK coding as Maniac said.
 
On land, the infantry variety also goes down, because the Gravebringer is so good (before, you have helions, marines, drop troopers, cyborgs - then you only have mobile infantry and gravebringers).

I was planning a while back to just remove the Gravebringer and use its graphics for the Mobile Infantry. Shall I proceed with that?

In Planetfall, the carrier is all you really want (okay, it's more expensive than the cruiser... but it's still strange) - would be nice to have that variety, forcing you to have a well-balanced mix of foils, cruisers and carriers.

What would those extra units do though, keeping in mind they can already be specialized with special abilities?

Also, due to the rather small spread of unit strengths, getting better units doesn't feel like a big accomplishment. I don't want to see the big spread of Civ (3 - 30+, which fits the "history of mankind thing" - whereas Planetfall fall has a rather tight spread that fits the progress over a small time scale of several hundred years), but slightly more distinct differences would also help to make it feel a bit better.

That's a difficult issue. In vanilla Civ4 being a unit level behind is very dangerous. It pushes you in a constant rat race to keep up with your opponents. That is fun, however I think this only works with a narrow tech tree with few choices, where you can quickly research the needed military tech to get equal again with your opponent.

Planetfall's tech tree is broader. This allows a greater variety of game strategies. If I were to increase the strength difference between two unit levels, I'd need to include a whole bunch of extra units in all tech themes, so that you don't need to switch your entire research focus when an opponent gets a better unit. Else everyone would flock to either mind worms (to get out of the rat race), or to those few techs that grant the military units (which would remove the greater research variety the tech tree now has).

Only with a single faction - University (IIRC) - with which I had the best relations. It is just strange to see other leaders that are cautious to pleased to you having a stack of techs - and you have a stack of techs (and I had better ones) - and no trading is going on - they only want to buy my techs with energy.

Are you sure that faction who were Pleased with you also didn't want to trade tech with you?
I don't want factions to buy tech from you if they don't want to trade you tech either, but that would require an SDK change. And I have no idea yet where to do that.

+1% for each 2 points on the FC

this

Ok, so with CP and HF the fungus counter can reach 100 or go far beyond that without covering the entire map?

Yes. Later on I could also do stuff like 'every Transcend great person born increases the FC', or a Mark of the Prophecy or whatever it's called promotion effect like in FfH, which increases the Flowering Counter. But before the AI can join in the flowering counter game, there's no point in including that yet I feel.
 
I was planning a while back to just remove the Gravebringer and use its graphics for the Mobile Infantry. Shall I proceed with that?
Yes, please! I think that would help a lot.
What would those extra units do though, keeping in mind they can already be specialized with special abilities?
Mainly because the special abilities are pretty encompassing - but not universal. In my opinion, they rather "round out" units - you pick them to either reduce certain weaknesses or increase their effectiveness in their specialisation - both are valid choices. It's nice to have choices like: Do I build cruisers and trick out their air-defenses or do I rather throw in some air-defense foils (let's say they have an in-built bonus against air) and improve the cruiser's defence against other ships? Or do I improve the speed of my infantry or do I combine them with other fast units and specialise their strength against native life?
That's a difficult issue. In vanilla Civ4 being a unit level behind is very dangerous. It pushes you in a constant rat race to keep up with your opponents. That is fun, however I think this only works with a narrow tech tree with few choices, where you can quickly research the needed military tech to get equal again with your opponent.
I see where you're coming from and can agree with that, just a little more extra spread would help I think - especially if good special abilities are on techs that don't enable new units (perhaps even less military techs). That way a new base unit isn't quite as good and gives the other research paths viability (even in the military race). Also, this makes experienced units more valuable (something that doesn't work in Civ, because of the far too big spread) - it's just what might be enough to close the gap! So, for example, university has better tech, so they have plasmathrowers - but the spartans and their experienced troops can still win and have good chances, because their experienced units compensate for the tech lead. And upgrading units kills experience - hence it's not always a no-brainer choice, allowing you to either try to tech-race or to keep your units top-of-the line experience-wise, both would be viable strategies.

I mean, there is already a big example of what feels "good" in Planetfall:

The Flamethrower->Plasmathrower->Helion line as native/infantry killers with the InVitro->Cyborg line as no-war weariness line and the marine/droptrooper->mobile infantry line as mobility line. These three paths have a nice spread in strength that you get the feel that you get better units (but not overwhelmingly so, with right strategy even older units can stop better ones, also that might be why I dislike the gravebringer, because it sort of breaks down the whole infantry line thing for me - and make the tech for it a must-have; with several lines, you are more likely to have at lease one line pretty advanced, meaning you are still good in the strength race).

Also, with these infantry lines, you could also make the argument that you could roll them into a single line, differentiated by special abilities - but I think having them split as now and having special abilities to customise them more works pretty well.
Are you sure that faction who were Pleased with you also didn't want to trade tech with you?
I'll double-check later, perhaps there are other things as well.

EDIT: Ah, now I see what Pfeffersack meant: Lal at Pleased does trade now, so it was probably more of a situation-specific thing in my current game. I also think it's because in the vanilla game, it's easier to arrive at pleased as there are more civs - Planetfall has only six factions as possible trade partners and has more tensions between them, making it more difficult to trade (as you don't get them to pleased that often) in comparison to the standard game - I need to break out of these impressions a bit.

Cheers, LT.
 
Yes, please! I think that would help a lot.
Mainly because the special abilities are pretty encompassing - but not universal. In my opinion, they rather "round out" units - you pick them to either reduce certain weaknesses or increase their effectiveness in their specialisation - both are valid choices. It's nice to have choices like: Do I build cruisers and trick out their air-defenses or do I rather throw in some air-defense foils (let's say they have an in-built bonus against air) and improve the cruiser's defence against other ships?

Several different ship lines, similar to infantry, sounds interesting to me, however there are two issues:

1) I have no idea what the inherent boni for these ship types could be.
But more importantly:
2) I have no idea on what techs I could place different ship lines. Currently they're all on the Industry and Naval tech themes, which occasionally mix with each other. For different ship lines to be interesting, they should also be enabled by different tech lines. Otherwise you'll always have the most powerful of all ship lines anyway, and you might as well just have one ship type after all.

Also, this makes experienced units more valuable

I don't understand. :confused: You suggest to increase the difference in strength between unit upgrades. That would reduce the effect of XP, no?
 
I don't understand. :confused: You suggest to increase the difference in strength between unit upgrades. That would reduce the effect of XP, no?
Compared to vanilla BtS. And upgrading caps the XP at 10, all XP above is lost, meaning an experienced older unit could still win combats (favourably) with a fresh high-tech unit or a unit that was upgraded very often (and hence lost its XP and never got the higher promos).

Compared to Planetfall now... well, yes, the impact of promos would decrease. But as you're contemplating folding promotions into one single line, which would make them better again... or one could also increase the effect of promotions a bit. Not sure, I have to admit (don't forget, these are more or less ideas as reaction to what my gut feelings are, not finely crafted "can-use-it-now" suggestions).

About the ships: I have some ideas... I'll take a look at the tech tree and try to make a little chart or so with some ideas, if I have time. Perhaps you can use the product for something. :)

EDIT: Now, as I started to look over some units... I have the feeling - after reading this old thread that the current unit design is still a bit of a work in progress - is my impression right?

Cheers, LT.
 
EDIT: Now, as I started to look over some units... I have the feeling - after reading this old thread that the current unit design is still a bit of a work in progress - is my impression right?

Cheers, LT.

I especially miss the Battle Ogres. They were just cool, though their no-repair-penalty was a bit too harsh IMO. They could spice up pod results a bit in Planetfall (BTW, I think another reason why it feels that their is less variance in sea pod outcomes, is the fact that PF compared to SMAC/X does not reward it especially to use a ship with transport capacity - in the original that was compulsory to allow Alien Artifact finds and you could end up with finding e.g. a Rover as well. In PF such founds seem to be impossible on sea, regardless what ship you use...or was I just especially unlucky in the past?); a repair penalty should be still attached (-75% for example), maybe somewhat reduced if you have access to an alien artifact...?

Bringing them as a late game unit would be ok as well (but then the slowed repair wouldn't make sense - shouldn't you be able to repair what you have built?)...though I prefer the pod variant...just makes them more unique and special.
 
About the ships: I have some ideas... I'll take a look at the tech tree and try to make a little chart or so with some ideas, if I have time. Perhaps you can use the product for something. :)

Thanks!
Btw, there's a third issue with adding new ship types: graphics! While I feel modern submarine graphics can also fit fot futuristic subs (you can't go wrong with eg one of The_Coyote's black-coloured subs), I don't know of any fitting Cruiser graphics besides the ones already used.

EDIT: Now, as I started to look over some units... I have the feeling - after reading this old thread that the current unit design is still a bit of a work in progress - is my impression right?

Nothing is set in stone of course. When I see the need for something, I add it.
For instance I felt the Genetics theme could use some extra military benefits, so I added the InVitro unit. Also I felt the game could use some extra ways to combat offshore indingenous lifeforms events, so for the next patch I gave the Chopper the ability to fight inside your territorial waters. Plus I added a Chopper upgrade, the Rotor, at Kinematics.
Notes: 1. I should move some of the Kinematics goodies to other techs.2. I should rethink what makes Hovertanks special compared to Choppers.

(BTW, I think another reason why it feels that their is less variance in sea pod outcomes, is the fact that PF compared to SMAC/X does not reward it especially to use a ship with transport capacity - in the original that was compulsory to allow Alien Artifact finds and you could end up with finding e.g. a Rover as well.

The AI wouldn't understand this I think.
I could add a naval version of the material supplies (supply trawler - though the AI will just move that home by itself and let it get eaten by IoDs...)
 
Also I felt the game could use some extra ways to combat offshore indingenous lifeforms events, so for the next patch I gave the Chopper the ability to fight inside your territorial waters. Plus I added a Chopper upgrade, the Rotor, at Kinematics.
Oh, that's actually pretty cool, because I also thought the chopper could need an upgrade.

In my opinion, you could keep choppers and hovertanks distinct, making the upgrade lines like this:

Chopper->Rotor->Gravship
=> make the distinguishing feature of this line to be able to move on impassable terrain and to fight off-shore in territorial waters. Then add for the gravship some extra, like the March promotion. That would make the line a line of mobile and relatively independent patrol units.

Recon Rover->"Assault Rover" (needs better name!)->Hovertank
=> make the distinguishing feature of this line a withdrawal chance and perhaps something like the flanking effect, making this line sort of the "cavalry" in Civ: fast attackers. Then the hovertank gains the ability to have flat movement cost - but not the ability to enter impassable terrain, see it as sort of "ground hovering", only a couple of meters high (I think it actually looks like that in the SMAC pictures as well).

Together with the treaded units, this would give three pretty distinct lines of land vehicles (terrain ignorers/fast withdrawers/heavy armour) - that should be more than enough.

(Note: these are just some thoughts I was musing about, lacks a lot of elaboration, I want to take a look at the navals first - and their strengths etc.)

Cheers, LT.
 
Thanks!
Btw, there's a third issue with adding new ship types: graphics! While I feel modern submarine graphics can also fit fot futuristic subs (you can't go wrong with eg one of The_Coyote's black-coloured subs), I don't know of any fitting Cruiser graphics besides the ones already used.

Perhaps not exactly a cruiser, but did you know of the Skjold class model? Also, here is a modern-looking frigate, but it definitely needs to be retextured. And Xenomorph made teamcolored subs here.
 
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