Venice discussion

[Ulthwithian]

thejayq: It is heavily implied that Venice can buy military units in their puppets. Which, if true, seems a huge competitive advantage for them, militarily speaking.

 

[Calouste]

I think with Venice it is going to be very difficult to create a large army. I mean only Venice can make units, or am I missing something here? Perhaps befriending with military city-states will be a neccesity for a Venetian civ.

Yes, you are missing that Venice will have tons of money and can just purchase an army.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Yes, you are missing that Venice will have tons of money and can just purchase an army.

and buy them in puppeted cities too.

 

[Bechhold]

Sorry, but this is necessary now:

HA!!!! I WAS RIGHT!!!

I hate to be that guy but I deserve some credit Ahem.

 

[Nyanko]

I'd say it's 99.99% guaranteed that Venice, a city literally built on water, will have a coast start bias.

Edit: Moreover iirc every civ with a naval UU has a coast bias.

Byzantium is the only civ with a water based UU that doesn't have a water based start. Even so, I think its highly likely that Venice will be water bias.

 

[Calouste]

and buy them in puppeted cities too.

Not that important. Venice will have the Heroic Epic and whatever other military buildings are available, puppeted cities won't.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Not that important. Venice will have the Heroic Epic and whatever other military buildings are available, puppeted cities won't.

Aside from the Heroic Epic, what's to stop you from buying barracks and whatnot in one or more puppets?

 

[Nyanko]

But that's not quite true either. There's a difference between "più serena di" and "la più serena." The latter is "most serene" (superlativo) while the former is "more serene than" (comparativo).

At least, that's the way I was taught when I learned Italian. I'm not a native Italian speaker, but I did at least learn Italian. Then again, I forgot to match gender earlier, so maybe I'm not the best source.

Perhaps its the case in modern Italian; but in Medieval Venice, they didn't speak modern Italian, which is descended from Tuscan. Maybe in the Venetian Dialect; its the other way around. Of course knowing nothing about the Venetian Dialect, it might not be the case

 

[Calouste]

Aside from the Heroic Epic, what's to stop you from buying barracks and whatnot in one or more puppets?

Could be buying units instead for that money. Unless you have a far flung empire, buying units in your puppets is not going to be the most efficient way to solve your military needs.

 

[Louis XXIV]

It would normally be less efficient but, fortunately, they have the means to make more money than anyone else so they can make up for that.

 

[Petiscator]

Byzantium is the only civ with a water based UU that doesn't have a water based start. Even so, I think its highly likely that Venice will be water bias.

Add the Netherlands to that list, they get a Grassland Bias.

 

[Cyanfunk]

So with the crap-ton of trade routes and money from the merchants, Venice can simply buy a military as opposed to wasting turns on them. Hmmmm.

 

[TheMarshmallowBear]

From what I know civs get a bias based on their unique ability, grassland spawns marshes, which is why Netherlands get it. Celts get a Forest bias. And I think certain civs get a coastal bias, but I'm not exactly sure why. Spain for example, I think it gets a coastal bias too.

 

[Fluxx]

I doubt it's that much, or else players wouldn't consider the regular Great Merchant to be the least useful Great Person after Great Admirals. Plus, Venice has double Trade Routes, so they should be rolling in freshly minted gold. That little Trade Mission amount is pocket change.

People who think the GM is the worst GP do not play the same game as me.

Last time I checked the GM generates around a 1k gold, plus an influence boost with a CS worth more than 60 points, which is the equivalent of another 1k+ gold. (numbers might be slightly off).

It is definitely better than a GA, and in alot of cases is better than a GE on higher difficulties since the AI often will lead on tech so you cant even pop it on time.

The incredible nerf of the GS also makes popping one alot less valuable as it used to be, and the best use of it is settling it early.

In any case, the point is that alot of players seem to value gold incredibly low, and is actually extremely valuable in a OCC strategy.
Venice seems alot of fun for me to play, and most likely will be the first civ I try out.

For now I am thinking of just rushing to NC and if possible to medieval age before you fill up tradition (commerce tree seems a must), then backfill optics and opt strategies according what the map allows you to.
Being able to purchase items in puppets is quite a big thing too, since often the biggest drawback of puppets is the fact you can not control their building paths.

Also people underestimate the versatility that Venice allows, namely a conquest focused strategy with mass puppeting used to be quite a decent strategy.
The only thing that I wonder is if you are allowed to sac cities when they are puppeted without being able to annex them first.

 

[ggmoyang]

Merchant specialist isn't comparable to other specialists too, 2 is just too weak compared to 3, 2, or 3.

And trade mission gold increases with era, and it's mere 500 in medieval. It gets +200gold per era IIRC, but will you wait for 200gold?
And you shouldn't exchange that to gold. If you want specific CS in mind, it would take quite turns to move GM to them. If you just use GM to nearby CS, there's a chance it that IP is effectively wasted.

So in early game -
GS - Quite good benefit when settled. Good benefits if saved for right time.
GE - Can grab quite good wonders.
GM - Arguably better than GA, but still far behind from GS/GE.
GA - Not so good indeed. should focus on other GP.

Late game -
GS - Huge science boost saves many turns.
GE - Can grab quite good wonders.
GM - 1100~1300 gold makes not much difference. GA gives much more money over the period, with bonus hammers too.
GA - Now golden age gives huge benefits, can be better than GS/GE.

 

[PhilBowles]

From what I know civs get a bias based on their unique ability, grassland spawns marshes, which is why Netherlands get it. Celts get a Forest bias. And I think certain civs get a coastal bias, but I'm not exactly sure why. Spain for example, I think it gets a coastal bias too.

Only a limited number of civs have terrain-specific UAs or UIs - most civs have thematically-defined start biases.

Merchant specialist isn't comparable to other specialists too, 2 is just too weak compared to 3, 2, or 3.

This is the key issue with Great Merchants, I think. 2 gold is just too easy to obtain on food- or production-producing tiles to be worth sacrificing those, unless you're in the sufficiently late game that you're benefiting from specialist-related policies. Though this may now have changed with lower gold output from tiles.

And you shouldn't exchange that to gold. If you want specific CS in mind, it would take quite turns to move GM to them. If you just use GM to nearby CS, there's a chance it that IP is effectively wasted.

Quite often producing a GM will be a CS mission, so you can benefit from that influence, plus the mission influence, plus potentially extra from paying. I quite often focus on GM production as Sweden, since I'm playing diplomatically to maximise GS production and as a bonus get to keep CSs on my side for the big vote in the late game - with a GM I can either use its mission to obtain some influence and gold, or use Sweden's ability for double influence.

As an alternative, gold from a GP improvement may be a big deal in BNW.

So in early game -
GS - Quite good benefit when settled. Good benefits if saved for right time.
GE - Can grab quite good wonders.
GM - Arguably better than GA, but still far behind from GS/GE.
GA - Not so good indeed. should focus on other GP.

I only ever go for GE late game - the engineer specialist buildings are on the wrong path, and too late along it, to get good early Wonders, and those are quick to produce anyway. I rarely use more than one, though should probably use them for manufactories occasionally.

Artists are actually quite good early-mid game since landmarks can race you to policies quickly at a time when you want to accumulate them (just not so early that you finish policy trees before unlocking Rationalism).

 

[Buccaneer]

So with the crap-ton of trade routes and money from the merchants, Venice can simply buy a military as opposed to wasting turns on them. Hmmmm.

Using production for military is by far the best use of hammers and not a waste at all (unlike Wonders, which are mostly a waste). Using gold and faith to buy military units are ideal but that mean freeing up hammers to grow to work specialists, science buildings and...more military units.

 

[Buccaneer]

Only a limited number of civs have terrain-specific UAs or UIs - most civs have thematically-defined start biases.



This is the key issue with Great Merchants, I think. 2 gold is just too easy to obtain on food- or production-producing tiles to be worth sacrificing those, unless you're in the sufficiently late game that you're benefiting from specialist-related policies. Though this may now have changed with lower gold output from tiles.



Quite often producing a GM will be a CS mission, so you can benefit from that influence, plus the mission influence, plus potentially extra from paying. I quite often focus on GM production as Sweden, since I'm playing diplomatically to maximise GS production and as a bonus get to keep CSs on my side for the big vote in the late game - with a GM I can either use its mission to obtain some influence and gold, or use Sweden's ability for double influence.



I only ever go for GE late game - the engineer specialist buildings are on the wrong path, and too late along it, to get good early Wonders, and those are quick to produce anyway. I rarely use more than one, though should probably use them for manufactories occasionally.

Artists are actually quite good early-mid game since landmarks can race you to policies quickly at a time when you want to accumulate them (just not so early that you finish policy trees before unlocking Rationalism).

Yes. Settle your first GS. Settle Artists until Industrial then for Golden Ages. Merchants can only product 1k gold very late unless you are playing at a low level or slow speed. Engineers only good for late game, like Research Labs and Hubble.

 

[Biologist]

Biologist: You could easily do the following.

MoV has the Trade Mission button.

When you click it, you receive X money like any other Civ.
After that, a dialogue pops up and asks if you want to puppet the City-State for X gold.

This would have the _effect_ of making no money off the Puppet.

OTOH, if you have the policy (is it the Commerce Finisher?) that doubles Trade Mission money, you would see the following:

MoV has the Trade Mission button.

When you click it, you receive 2X money like any other Civ with that Policy.
After that, a dialogue pops up and asks if you want to puppet the City-State for X gold.

This way, you would get both the City-State and the Trade Mission gold.

Ah, thanks for the clarification. That makes sense now.

 

[ggmoyang]

Anyways, for Venetians Venice will be the only reliable source of science for long time, so hiring scientists will be a must. This means Venice won't get GM for long time, or they should heavily solw down the growth to hire 4 specialists. (at least they could use multiple-GP spawning exploit.)