Venice discussion

[Gaussia]

Venice would be extremely weak if there are no city states

If you've ever wanted to win on Diety but haven't been able too I'm Guessing The Huns vs Venice on a Great Plains map with no City States would be a bit like seeing Liechtenstein declare war on the USSR in 1948.

And when talking about Huns + Venice, from where will the huns pick additional city names? Non present civs?

 

[sukritact]

I'm probably gonna give it some modding treatment, at the very least I'd like to redo the Great Galleass, it make no historical sense that they're more expensive given the Arsenale. Probably gonna do something like "Armed Merchantman; More powerful (20 ranged, 18 Melee?) and cheaper (75 Prod?) than the Galleass, but loose gold when sunk."

Maybe I'll try and remake the whole thing; La Serenissima; Gain influence in City-States with whom you have a trade route. And a Grand Canal UB that gives you extra trade routes and tourism based on population?

 

[PhilBowles]

Greece is rather weak without city-states as well. Game is balanced around number of city-states 2 times more than number of civs.

I think one thing people are forgetting is that Merchants of Venice aren't the only way Venice has to take cities - it's still capable of capturing cities militarily like anyone else (except that it won't be able to annex them) or, in the unlikely event that you can work it without forcing a surrender from the other party, being given them through diplomacy.

 

[Leugi]

I'm probably gonna give it some modding treatment, at the very least I'd like to redo the Great Galleass, it make no historical sense that they're more expensive given the Arsenale. Probably gonna do something like "Armed Merchantman; More powerful (20 ranged, 18 Melee?) and cheaper (75 Prod?) than the Galleass, but loose gold when sunk."

Maybe I'll try and remake the whole thing; La Serenissima; Gain influence in City-States with whom you have a trade route. And a Grand Canal UB that gives you extra trade routes and tourism based on population?

I'd actually keep most of Venice's current flavor, but allowing them to build expensive settlers (as in, 3 times more expensive), of course, Liberty would be important then, but it'd be better.

I'd specially change the Great Galleas though... But I don't know how... maybe your idea will work...

 

[sukritact]

I'd actually keep most of Venice's current flavor, but allowing them to build expensive settlers (as in, 3 times more expensive), of course, Liberty would be important then, but it'd be better.

I dislike the idea of more expensive settlers if there isn't a benefit to offset that.

I think Venice's theme really should be tall commercial culture, with the Galleass there just to give Venice it's historical naval supremacy during the middle ages. I'd love the make the UA "Relics of Saint Mark" and give Venice the chance to receive a Great Work at the conclusion of Trade Routes, but I'm not sure if that possible.

 

[headcase]

And when talking about Huns + Venice, from where will the huns pick additional city names? Non present civs?

You can try Huns vs Huns and see what happens... I haven't tried it yet.

Venice vs Venice will also be interesting, maybe they have a city list with more than just Venice for that circumstance.

 

[UkrNixon]

You can try Huns vs Huns and see what happens... I haven't tried it yet.

Venice vs Venice will also be interesting, maybe they have a city list with more than just Venice for that circumstance.

I've just tried it on duel map. Both Atillas get city names from all other civs.

 

[Seek]

I wish people actually read the "what we know" thread before commenting on various strategies because it is kinda annoying to discuss/speculate when people are ignorant of the confirmed things. For example we know that:

1. Science through trade routes benefits only the party who is behind in tech.
2. Venice can buy units and buildings in puppeted cities.
3. Venice cannot get settlers in any way.

Forgive my nitpickiness, but 1. isn't quite correct. According to the tootip, science through TRs comes from techs which are unknown to the other civ (it's not gross number of techs) so it seems possible that both parties could gain some science from TRs. This mechanic encourages early beelining, interestingly.

 

[Buccaneer]

A certain Ozymandias-inspired statue loves to visit Venice, especially with that kind of matchup, as well as with duel multiplayer no-CS Skirmish matches. How serene it is to see that statue pop up all of a sudden all the time.

You're really not going to let that one go, are you?

Some of you are coming with very weird gameplay scenarios and then you wonder why it's not playable or balanced?!? There are many choices you can make for a competitive game (even with Venice and most involve Standard speed) without the need to get silly.

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

My brother just got back from a trip to Venice. He was showing me his pictures. Every time he wanted to tell me what is in the pictures, I beat him to it due to becoming very familiar with the city via the continuous heated debates in Civfanatics. It was quite humorous.

 

[alter_echoe]

I was very much against Venice as a full Civ, but I have to admit it, from a gameplay perspective (the one that matters most, IMO), Venice looks pretty good. I really don't get why so many people are complaining about Venice (or the Shoshone or any other Civ for that matter) for what it can't (supposedly) do, or do well enough by their standards. "Victory condition X is near impossible!", "How am I gonna get enough of X yield?", "If I do that then it will hinder my chances of doing this." Well, this is the whole point, isn't it?

There are many delightful aspects about playing Civilization (the wonder of early exploration, running a well-oiled empire because you did everything right, getting back at opponents that got under your skin...you name it, it's endless) but certainly for me one of the most enjoyable things to do is conquer the challenge of winning the game IN SPITE of the many hindrances and obstacles put in your way, sometimes by your Civ's own UA or overall characteristics, sometimes by specific Civ matchups, map types, your own playstyle, whatever. No Victory Condition should be blocked (nor they are), but having a victory plan in your mind only to discover that you won't make it in time and that you have to find another way, and then finding it, regardless of the Civ you are playing with, is immensely satisfying. I love trying to win a Culture game with the Huns, for instance.

What's the point of having over 40 Civs if they all play the same an can do everything well? I want to have an edge on somethings just as much as I want to have to struggle to overcame certain others. That's the fun. I think the developers agree with that, and more and more they are giving us Civs that are internally complex and have complementary traits, all the while being diverse amongst themselves. How do I get gold? How do I keep up in science? How can I defend myself? How can I manage happiness? How can I lead without pissing off everybody? There are many questions an plenty of paths to victory, you have to know your strenghts and weeknesses and find your custom way to any VC. I certainly have preferences when it comes to playstyle (I'm a builder, I love to have perfectly positioned and spaced cities, I'm a sucker for luxury resources, I always play trhough the end) but I NEVER "go for domination" or "go for culture". Where's the fun in that? I play with all the Civs in random and I like to think I can win any VC with any of them. I love a perfect starting location just as much as a putrid one, just to see if I can win regardless. I just don't like super-specific or gimmicky maps, like tiny islands. (play mostly fractal and continents). To sum it up, I feel all Civs should have sort of a "short blanket": either you cover your chest or your feet.

 

[KrikkitTwo]

Exactly Venice's 2x trade routes are a massive advantage. Offset by the massive dis advantage of only building wonders/controlling specialists inside the capital city.

This does a couple of things
Gold as primary means of production
Faith as a primary means of Science/Cultural specialist Generation (because of puppet made MoV)
Use of domestic trade routes for "wonder capital"
Combat as only way to maintain a 'compact' empire

 

[gunnergoz]

I'm probably gonna give it some modding treatment, at the very least I'd like to redo the Great Galleass, it make no historical sense that they're more expensive given the Arsenale. (snip)

Given the fact that they were purpose designed with a forecastle filled with large cannon, and that there never were that many of them to begin with (e.g. only half a dozen at the battle of Lepanto), I'd say their added expense is realistic. But they were game-changers in their day, so their inclusion is historically correct.

I like your other ideas and play with the existing Venetian mod and Grand Canal mod often.

 

[baptismbyfire]

@ alter echoe - Yeah, I have come around to your point of view, although I wish I could have a Venice that could build cities like Padua and whatnot, it brings a completely unique game style to the table. That's really what is important for any new civ. Plus, you have to expect that the AI will be significantly better if it has to be sophisticated enough to play under the conditions Venice presents. I'd also note that for wonder building, I usually only build wonders in my capital, although there are certain games where I build Petra and that city becomes my wonder powerhouse. I otherwise only build wonders that I'm not necessarily all that upset about if I miss in cities other than the capital. It's never really effected my ability to keep my capital up to date in terms of buildings and I also generally try to buy units instead of build.

 

[Konsti]

a question, can i send trade routes from puppetted cities?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

a question, can i send trade routes from puppetted cities?

Why not? It's a function of the trade unit, not the city.

 

[HorseshoeHermit]

Anyways, for Venetians Venice will be the only reliable source of science for long time, so hiring scientists will be a must. This means Venice won't get GM for long time, or they should heavily solw down the growth to hire 4 specialists. (at least they could use multiple-GP spawning exploit.)

Great Merchant tile improvement could be valuable in this game. Profit in each city factors again into trade route profit. Merchant specialists could be good, for that matter.
Matching a GS to a GM is doable with market-university, then the slots stay about equal, true. But that 'option' is only a good thing once. You get your second GP sooner than you would have, but the cycle after that is the same. Starting from 0 GPP for both of whichever, you're going to just want one of those GP as soon as you can.

I wish people actually read the "what we know" thread before commenting on various strategies because it is kinda annoying to discuss/speculate when people are ignorant of the confirmed things. For example we know that:

1. Science through trade routes benefits only the party who is behind in tech.
2. Venice can buy units and buildings in puppeted cities.
3. Venice cannot get settlers in any way.

The images and screens show that one side gains beakers "for each technology the other side knows that they don't." Do you have a source confirming the additional condition of "being behind in tech"? Even if it goes by literacy, it could still profit the side "ahead in tech" in the ancient era, and stay that way through Renaissance.

 

[Loopdy Doopdy]

I have a question about Venice which may or may not have been answered already. What happens if venice loses it's capital? Since it only has other puppeted cities. Would one of those become automatically annexed and become the capital or what?

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

Presumably, you're going to be stuck buying units in your puppets till you can retake Venice.

 

[tranger66]

You can try Huns vs Huns and see what happens... I haven't tried it yet.

Venice vs Venice will also be interesting, maybe they have a city list with more than just Venice for that circumstance.

So if two people play as Venice, one of them could be playing with 'the Most Serene Trading Republic of Pyongyang'?