The problem I see with the unique luxury connector is sea resources. What if you roll a start with whales and crab? You can't build your unique improvement at all in your capital.
I don't understand how moving the MoV from Sailing to Trade would limit the choices of using it. Those who like to use it for a trade mission can still do that, and those that like to use it to get a puppet can also do that.
It isn't the move that limits it. It's using that move as the balance against Venice losing 2 Science, 2 Production, and 1 Culture per turn from Turn 1, and expecting people to use their MoV to ally a Maritime or Cultural city-state and pick Tradition to make up for these losses. That was the context of your original suggestion for the move. If you feel the earlier MoV will make up for the loss of yields from Doge's Palace in other ways, then I apologize for missing that context.
I felt that you were saying that the only purpose of the improvement was to provide Venice early yields. If that wasn't your intention then I apologize. As long as there is something actually interesting about the UI, I'm all for it.
Any Venice UI or UB needs to also deal with the fact that Venice is currently balanced around having more flat empire yields from turn 1 than every other civ, needs to have a stronger capital than other civs, and cannot be guaranteed a good nearby city-state to buy or ally. The current UB, Doge's Palace, has the sole role of getting you through the Ancient era so you have some defenses and mobility. It's boring and given to you, no element of choice, strategy, or optimization apply. If it is replaced with a UI that connects luxuries, that UI also needs to good yields and be available early so it can fulfill the same role.
Any Venice UI or UB needs to also deal with the fact that Venice is currently balanced around having more flat empire yields from turn 1 than every other civ, needs to have a stronger capital than other civs, and cannot be guaranteed a good nearby city-state to buy or ally. The current UB, Doge's Palace, has the sole role of getting you through the Ancient era so you have some defenses and mobility. It's boring and given to you, no element of choice, strategy, or optimization apply. If it is replaced with a UI that connects luxuries, that UI also needs to good yields and be available early so it can fulfill the same role.
100% agreed. However, moving the MoV to Trade could help as well, at least partially. It's very unlikely, that you have no city-states around you at all.
I sort of do like it. It's unique (for now at least) and works well with Venice and its puppets. However, it does only encourage you to get even more gold, which is something you'll do anyway. And unless it's a market replacement, it does not tackle Venice's main problem, which is the early game. If we cannot rely on MoV to help Venice through the ancient era, then we need something else there.
I could get behind a council that gives you yields for purchases. It solves the early game problem and has synergy with the rest of Venice's abilities. It's not going to reinvent Venice, but that's not the point here. The point is to get a UB/UI that is more interesting than Doge's Palace. (Which really shouldn't require much)
I could get behind a council that gives you yields for purchases. It solves the early game problem and has synergy with the rest of Venice's abilities. It's not going to reinvent Venice, but that's not the point here. The point is to get a UB/UI that is more interesting than Doge's Palace. (Which really shouldn't require much)
Again, a UB for Venice is pretty lame due to their puppetmongering. If you want to try it for now I'm down though.
Still would much prefer a Guild UI that build on top of luxuries (and strategics if possible), has a limited number of them (so you choose which ones to improve and not just all of them), and provides significant yields (and varied yields if possible, otherwise we might as well let you improve all of them).
Also, just like with the Royal Library of Assyria, the Great Council is clearly a one-and-done thematically.
Also, like someone mentioned, if its a gold-usage-bonus it will further force Venice into a gold hording playstyle. On the other hand gold is inherently flexible and inefficient so that might be ok.
Again, a UB for Venice is pretty lame due to their puppetmongering. If you want to try it for now I'm down though.
Still would much prefer a Guild UI that build on top of luxuries (and strategics if possible), has a limited number of them (so you choose which ones to improve and not just all of them), and provides significant yields (and varied yields if possible, otherwise we might as well let you improve all of them).
Also, just like with the Royal Library of Assyria, the Great Council is clearly a one-and-done thematically.
Also, like someone mentioned, if its a gold-usage-bonus it will further force Venice into a gold hording playstyle. On the other hand gold is inherently flexible and inefficient so that might be ok.
Actually, a Council doesn't sound too bad in my book. Maybe something that speeds up City-State border growth, or allows you to keep the ally bonuses of whatever City-State it's built in. Though, I guess the major concern right now is science and keeping up in the tech department, so extra science in this hypothetical council seems most important.
Right, they already get a bunch of gold. Now they're encouraged to do it even more. What do you do as Venice? Nothing to think about, gold is clearly the best, let's move along here. That's the problem I have with that, but I'll try it.
And I don't just mean a UNW sucks (because they do), I mean any Venice UB is nearly a UNW because you can only choose to build/synergize with it in the capital. Trying to make any decisions around it in the puppets will be a nightmare because you have only a little bit of control through investing.
Right, they already get a bunch of gold. Now they're encouraged to do it even more. What do you do as Venice? Nothing to think about, gold is clearly the best, let's move along here. That's the problem I have with that, but I'll try it.
And I don't just mean a UNW sucks (because they do), I mean any Venice UB is nearly a UNW because you can only choose to build/synergize with it in the capital. Trying to make any decisions around it in the puppets will be a nightmare because you have only a little bit of control through investing.
When you invest in a Venetian puppet, the building is auto-added to the build list. And you can re-arrange the list. So there's more control than you think.
I don't like the base Council or feel it should have been added (didn't you specifically move Writing to Classical so there wasn't an Ancient era science building?) so a UB Council will never be something I support. Venice was not famed for it's political system. The most unique thing they did was limit hereditary involvement through a lottery of new candidates each year.
I'd rather see Venice get the UI. There's even an easy bonus for said UI. Venice's claim to fame was monopolizing trade routes and key commodities, but at current they have a hard time interacting with the CBP monopoly and corporation systems. Give the UI the ability to double (or more) the resources it connects, so Venice has a good shot at having one or more monopolies available before East India Company.
When you invest in a Venetian puppet, the building is auto-added to the build list. And you can re-arrange the list. So there's more control than you think.
No, I know that. But just building the UB is not the only part of interacting with it. Planning around it is important too, in techs you research, other buildings you build, etc. You cannot afford to control enough of the buildings you build in puppets to have any sort of gameplay affect on the UB.
The point is you want to have different ways to use the UB, different levels of effectiveness. The Hanse is a great example, because it isn't just "build the UB, we're done here", its build the UB then trade route selection, and before building the UB you have to build things in the city to give them the production to build a Hanse. The Satrap does the same (it gives GA points/happiness right? You still have to use the GA with their UA, and it might not be worth building if you already have significant happiness, which changes the things you build before it). The Candi does the same (when do I improve that tile when I have other things to do? How much and what types of improvements do I bother with now that theres a luxury in the way of my village/farm plans? What about before, in case the luxury spawns on things?) The Mission gives Missionaries you still have to use and is less useful if you already have high faith production, so that changes what you built beforehand. And so on.
I may be able to choose when and where to build the UB itself in the puppets, but I can't possibly control enough of the factors to truly play with the UB. ESPECIALLY if its a Council, because then I'll just always invest in a unique council in every puppet asap. Wooo.
Edit: Oh, another thing is that buying CS that already have the building built takes away another decision point. At least if you knew which CS did or didn't have it already you could plan around it and purposely grab ones with it, but there's no way of knowing.
I'd rather see Venice get the UI. There's even an easy bonus for said UI. Venice's claim to fame was monopolizing trade routes and key commodities, but at current they have a hard time interacting with the CBP monopoly and corporation systems. Give the UI the ability to double (or more) the resources it connects, so Venice has a good shot at having one or more monopolies available before East India Company.
I like the idea, if it can be made to work with sea luxuries as well. Locking certain luxuries out feels dumb, and aren't we trying to make Venice less start-dependent. If it's UI only works on certain luxuries, we are only moving away from that goal.
I don't like the base Council or feel it should have been added (didn't you specifically move Writing to Classical so there wasn't an Ancient era science building?) so a UB Council will never be something I support. Venice was not famed for it's political system. The most unique thing they did was limit hereditary involvement through a lottery of new candidates each year.
I'd rather see Venice get the UI. There's even an easy bonus for said UI. Venice's claim to fame was monopolizing trade routes and key commodities, but at current they have a hard time interacting with the CBP monopoly and corporation systems. Give the UI the ability to double (or more) the resources it connects, so Venice has a good shot at having one or more monopolies available before East India Company.
1) Venice was absolutely famous for their unique system of government. An elected Doge had executive power, but there was also the Council of Ten (the Great Council we're discussing) that kept him in check with members from the noble merchant families. Then there was also some sort of judicial branch...
2) As awesome as the doubling UI idea is, I already suggested it and it is deemed undoable. There's probably a really gross way of doing it, but sometimes there isn't when you're just modding.
I'd rather see Venice get the UI. There's even an easy bonus for said UI. Venice's claim to fame was monopolizing trade routes and key commodities, but at current they have a hard time interacting with the CBP monopoly and corporation systems. Give the UI the ability to double (or more) the resources it connects, so Venice has a good shot at having one or more monopolies available before East India Company.
I think G already mentioned that there's no way an improvement can double a resource. I don't think I'd like it to anyways, I mean the Bazaar was killed for a reason.
I think G already mentioned that there's no way an improvement can double a resource. I don't think I'd like it to anyways, I mean the Bazaar was killed for a reason.
Because it doubled every resource in every city? This would be far less powerful (less Venetian cities, less resource diversity, and I also suggested a cap on how many you can build) and also more interesting (you can only choose so many luxuries if theres a cap on how many to build, so you also have to pick which ones. Do you want monopolies or more luxuries of different types and thus trading options?)
I don't like the base Council or feel it should have been added (didn't you specifically move Writing to Classical so there wasn't an Ancient era science building?) so a UB Council will never be something I support. Venice was not famed for it's political system. The most unique thing they did was limit hereditary involvement through a lottery of new candidates each year.
I'd rather see Venice get the UI. There's even an easy bonus for said UI. Venice's claim to fame was monopolizing trade routes and key commodities, but at current they have a hard time interacting with the CBP monopoly and corporation systems. Give the UI the ability to double (or more) the resources it connects, so Venice has a good shot at having one or more monopolies available before East India Company.
You can dislike the Council, but the statement 'Venice was not famed for its political system' is patently untrue. The Republic of Venice represented was utterly unique for its time, and the system of Great Councils, Councils of Ten, Oligarchs, Doges, and Ecumenical Councils was unlike anything else in the world.
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The trade mission was meant to be just an example of it's usage. Anyway, it was bad communication on my part.
