Venice

[Gazebo]

I've already got it covered, thanks for the offer, though!

G

 

[Gothic_Empire]

I've already got it covered, thanks for the offer, though!

G

Roger that. But poke me if you find yourself needing a custom asset. =) Civ is a different style than normal, but it looks easy enough to replicate.

 

[Funak]

Roger that. But poke me if you find yourself needing a custom asset. =) Civ is a different style than normal, but it looks easy enough to replicate.

Sun pope could probably use some help on the next project, he said he got this one covered already, but willing help is probably always welcome

 

[pandasnail]

Shouldn't MoVing count for Authority Imperium culture? Intentional choice or oversight?

 

[Taikavarpu]

I don't want to be picky, but the building in the new art for Doge's Palace is not Doge's Palace, but St Mark's Basilica. It's still a huge improvement over the previous one

 

[Gazebo]

I don't want to be picky, but the building in the new art for Doge's Palace is not Doge's Palace, but St Mark's Basilica. It's still a huge improvement over the previous one

I know. But it is close (by proximity) to the Doge's Palace.

G

 

[Taikavarpu]

I was actually wondering if the early yields from Doge's Palace are really necessary. I have played with Venice a lot and the early game isn't really a problem for Venice. Early MoVs (you can get 2 by building Pyramids and researching Sailing) net you a ton of gold and give you pseudo-permanent city state allys, which in turn net you substantial amounts of food, faith, culture etc. Buying city-states in the newest version of the CBP at the beginning of the game is pretty useless, as they do not produce anything of use (namely science).

My point is that Venice's early game is in a good spot even without the extra yields from Doge's Palace. In fact, I find Doge's Palace to be a bit too strong right now, especially on the science front. And yes, Doge's Palace is as boring as a UB can be. Venice is known for crusades and the sacking of Constantinople, so the picture of St. Mark's Basilica got me thinking of a different UB for Venice:

St. Mark's Basilica (Replaces Grand Temple)
- +6 faith
- starts a golden age
- religious need modifier -25%
- a great work of music slot
- +15% great person rate
- enemy spies cannot perform advanced spy actions in this city
- your religion spreads 50% faster along trade routes (has great synergy with the UA)
- capturing a holy city starts a golden age and gives +10 tourism to St. Mark's Basilica (the number was just thrown there, holy cities are rare and usually capitals and thus hard to capture, so the reward needs to be quite substantial)

The potential problem here is that the AI can't really use this effectively. I'm also unsure if this is too "high risk, high reward"-type of ability for a UB. I wanted to share it anyway. The idea maybe of some use somewhere else as well If we want something more simple, giving coastal raider I promotion and/or faith from kills to all (melee) ships built in the city, could be one thing.

 

[Gazebo]

I was actually wondering if the early yields from Doge's Palace are really necessary. I have played with Venice a lot and the early game isn't really a problem for Venice. Early MoVs (you can get 2 by building Pyramids and researching Sailing) net you a ton of gold and give you pseudo-permanent city state allys, which in turn net you substantial amounts of food, faith, culture etc. Buying city-states in the newest version of the CBP at the beginning of the game is pretty useless, as they do not produce anything of use (namely science).

My point is that Venice's early game is in a good spot even without the extra yields from Doge's Palace. In fact, I find Doge's Palace to be a bit too strong right now, especially on the science front. And yes, Doge's Palace is as boring as a UB can be. Venice is known for crusades and the sacking of Constantinople, so the picture of St. Mark's Basilica got me thinking of a different UB for Venice:

St. Mark's Basilica (Replaces Grand Temple)
- +6 faith
- starts a golden age
- religious need modifier -25%
- a great work of music slot
- +15% great person rate
- enemy spies cannot perform advanced spy actions in this city
- your religion spreads 50% faster along trade routes (has great synergy with the UA)
- capturing a holy city starts a golden age and gives +10 tourism to St. Mark's Basilica (the number was just thrown there, holy cities are rare and usually capitals and thus hard to capture, so the reward needs to be quite substantial)

The potential problem here is that the AI can't really use this effectively. I'm also unsure if this is too "high risk, high reward"-type of ability for a UB. I wanted to share it anyway. The idea maybe of some use somewhere else as well If we want something more simple, giving coastal raider I promotion and/or faith from kills to all (melee) ships built in the city, could be one thing.

Not a bad idea at all. I'll let others chime in, but this could finally liberate poor Venice from its current UB.

G

 

[Eagle Pursuit]

I'm not entirely opposed to the change, but I find it slightly odd for Venice to have a religious UB.

Perhaps a unique harbor might be more in line with its character. Especially since you can control build-order in Venice's puppet cities.

 

[Prower]

Personally, I think Venice does need the buffed up early game. Not being able to build settlers makes it tough to remedy a poor Capital. And despite the Doge's Palace being a bit boring I think it's well designed because it makes Venice more consistent.

If we do want to remove the Palace, I think they should get more Great Merchants (like Babylon for Merchants) so that they aren't completely screwed with a poor Capital. As for replacement UB's maybe something that gives bonuses if it's built in a puppeted city?

Also does Venice gain the Culture/GAP from buying a city state if they have that authority policy? I feel if it doesn't it probably should.

 

[Funak]

I was actually wondering if the early yields from Doge's Palace are really necessary. I have played with Venice a lot and the early game isn't really a problem for Venice. Early MoVs (you can get 2 by building Pyramids and researching Sailing) net you a ton of gold and give you pseudo-permanent city state allys, which in turn net you substantial amounts of food, faith, culture etc. Buying city-states in the newest version of the CBP at the beginning of the game is pretty useless, as they do not produce anything of use (namely science).

My point is that Venice's early game is in a good spot even without the extra yields from Doge's Palace. In fact, I find Doge's Palace to be a bit too strong right now, especially on the science front. And yes, Doge's Palace is as boring as a UB can be. Venice is known for crusades and the sacking of Constantinople, so the picture of St. Mark's Basilica got me thinking of a different UB for Venice:

St. Mark's Basilica (Replaces Grand Temple)
- +6 faith
- starts a golden age
- religious need modifier -25%
- a great work of music slot
- +15% great person rate
- enemy spies cannot perform advanced spy actions in this city
- your religion spreads 50% faster along trade routes (has great synergy with the UA)
- capturing a holy city starts a golden age and gives +10 tourism to St. Mark's Basilica (the number was just thrown there, holy cities are rare and usually capitals and thus hard to capture, so the reward needs to be quite substantial)

The potential problem here is that the AI can't really use this effectively. I'm also unsure if this is too "high risk, high reward"-type of ability for a UB. I wanted to share it anyway. The idea maybe of some use somewhere else as well If we want something more simple, giving coastal raider I promotion and/or faith from kills to all (melee) ships built in the city, could be one thing.

Honestly, this looks a whole lot worse than the Doggy Palace to me, and that's saying a lot considering how much I dislike that building.

 

[Taikavarpu]

Personally, I think Venice does need the buffed up early game. Not being able to build settlers makes it tough to remedy a poor Capital. And despite the Doge's Palace being a bit boring I think it's well designed because it makes Venice more consistent.

If we do want to remove the Palace, I think they should get more Great Merchants (like Babylon for Merchants) so that they aren't completely screwed with a poor Capital. As for replacement UB's maybe something that gives bonuses if it's built in a puppeted city?

The palace doesn't add anything to Venice, in terms of playing. It just makes the capital a bit stronger. It's the most boring UB in the game by far. It does make Venice more consistent for sure, but the gains from early MoV:s are really really powerful as well (1600 gold, 200 influence in classical era). The gold is enough to buy an army or buy-rush all your buildings for a while. Allying for example a maritime city-state gives you a strong and steady food input to your capital, so you'll get by even if you otherwise don't have a lot of food nearby. And it's not hard to get two of these at the very beginning of the game. I have to admit that losing the merchant specialist from the market hurts quite a bit, as it delays the following MoVs.

I would rather have a UB that makes playing more difficult but interesting, rather than one that makes it easy and boring. The idea of getting a UB that gives bonuses for puppets is an interesting one as well, but I would like to have something that encourages the player to actively do something else than just buy city-states and manage trade routes.

 

[Funak]

I would rather have a UB that makes playing more difficult but interesting, rather than one that makes it easy and boring. The idea of getting a UB that gives bonuses for puppets is an interesting one as well, but I would like to have something that encourages the player to actively do something else than just buy city-states and manage trade routes.

Your UB promotes one-dimensional play in the most one-dimensional civ in the game. That's usually a warning-bell.

 

[Taikavarpu]

Your UB promotes one-dimensional play in the most one-dimensional civ in the game. That's usually a warning-bell.

How does encouraging conquering promote one-dimensional play for Venice? Right now it's best if you don't fight a single war in the whole game.

 

[Funak]

How does encouraging conquering promote one-dimensional play for Venice? Right now it's best if you don't fight a single war in the whole game.

How does conquering holy-cities every game result in one-dimensional gameplay? Good question, the keyword is every game.


I would also highly oppose to your suggestion that they are currently best of not being in a single war, they are the civ that by far benefits the most from conquest as it gets them the thing they can not gather on their own, cities.

 

[Prower]

The palace doesn't add anything to Venice, in terms of playing. It just makes the capital a bit stronger. It's the most boring UB in the game by far. It does make Venice more consistent for sure, but the gains from early MoV:s are really really powerful as well (1600 gold, 200 influence in classical era). The gold is enough to buy an army or buy-rush all your buildings for a while. Allying for example a maritime city-state gives you a strong and steady food input to your capital, so you'll get by even if you otherwise don't have a lot of food nearby. And it's not hard to get two of these at the very beginning of the game. I have to admit that losing the merchant specialist from the market hurts quite a bit, as it delays the following MoVs.

I would rather have a UB that makes playing more difficult but interesting, rather than one that makes it easy and boring. The idea of getting a UB that gives bonuses for puppets is an interesting one as well, but I would like to have something that encourages the player to actively do something else than just buy city-states and manage trade routes.

I can agree that the palace is boring and I'm in favor of finding something better to give them, but if we do that there absolutely needs to be a way for them to generate Great Merchants in the early game. Without the market slot it's pretty tough to get those first few expansions, especially if you need to use one of your GMs to ally a city state to deal with a bad Capital. Could we have their traderoutes generate GM points like how Portugal generates GG and GA points?

As for the unique building I know someone has suggested a unique courthouse, something Venice doesn't actually ever get to make use out of, and I still like my idea of buffing puppets. Like isn't having super-puppets what they're all about?

EDIT: And Funak's right about war, they're kick-ass conquerors. I almost always go Authority Venice

 

[Taikavarpu]

How does conquering holy-cities every game result in one-dimensional gameplay? Good question, the keyword is every game.


I would also highly oppose to your suggestion that they are currently best of not being in a single war, they are the civ that by far benefits the most from conquest as it gets them the thing they can not gather on their own, cities.

Venice can easily get cities with MoVs. On top of that, they are fully developed cities and you get a lot of units as a bonus. So if you never anger the AI, you can just keep sending your trade routes to civs with highest culture output and eventually win the game with tourism. Taking out a single civ with a high culture output at the end may help, but for the majority of the game it's best to just stay in good relations with everyone.

 

[Prower]

Double post, oops

 

[Taikavarpu]

EDIT: And Funak's right about war, they're kick-ass conqueror's. I almost always go Authority Venice

In my opinion, taking anything but tradition as the first social policy tree for Venice is sub-optimal. Growing a powerful capital is a necessity for Venice and tradition gives you by far the best tools for that. It even gives you a precious merchant specialist, and +15% great person rate, so you'll get MoVs faster. I can understand authority being attractive because of the free MoV, but the other policies just pale in comparison with tradition. And when you can just peacefully buy new cities, there is very little reason to ever go to war.

 

[Taikavarpu]

As for the unique building I know someone has suggested a unique courthouse, something Venice doesn't actually ever get to make use out of, and I still like my idea of buffing puppets. Like isn't having super-puppets what they're all about?

I like the idea of buffing puppets as well. It's definitely more interesting than the palace. We already have a courthouse replacement however, so it would have to be some other building.