Venice

[pineappledan]

I’m building a unique harbour for the 4UC patch for Venice, but I haven’t played VP venice. What would be a better/more fun/more balanced buff for their harbours to get? Pick 1:

-10% gold purchase cost in city
Increased trade route distance (from +50% to +100%)

I know the last patch makes it harder to for Venice to complete all its trade routes, but -10% gold cost would be a fun, straightforward boost that can help them with wide play

 

[Enginseer]

I’m building a unique harbour for the 4UC patch for Venice, but I haven’t played VP venice. What would be a better/more fun/more balanced buff for their harbours to get? Pick 1:

-10% gold purchase cost in city
Increased trade route distance (from +50% to +100%)

I know the last patch makes it harder to for Venice to complete all its trade routes, but -10% gold cost would be a fun, straightforward boost that can help them with wide play

They already get -10% Gold Purchase if they chose the Rialto District.

 

[pineappledan]

I knew I was overlooking something. Extending trade routes it is! Should it be 75% or a full 100% do you think?

 

[ElliotS]

I knew I was overlooking something. Extending trade routes it is! Should it be 75% or a full 100% do you think?

Problem is that with new mechanics that could be a nerf on some mapsizes/types. Consider giving it the morocco ability where trade routes don't care about distance in addition to +75% range.

 

[pineappledan]

Not fond of giving other civ’s UAs as UBs. I’d be okay giving them a “slider” bonus, like a 30% reduction in the distance malus. For now I’d settle for just increasing the gold on trade routes increase

 

[CrazyG]

I knew I was overlooking something. Extending trade routes it is! Should it be 75% or a full 100% do you think?

This isn't a very relevant bonus. Arabia has extra trade route lenght, 90% of the time it does nothing. Occasionally you get to run a much better route early in the game, which is nice but generally still not game changing. Trade route length just isn't that importnat, and with the current trade mechanics sometimes a disadvantage (it might change though).

Something like +2 gold on trade routes in the city is much stronger

 

[pineappledan]

I haven’t tried Venice since the new patch, but With the change to not being able to stack trade routes on the same city range seems like it would be at a premium. Range might be the difference between Venice being able to fill its trade routes out and defaulting to internal/land routes just to use its slots.

 

[ElliotS]

I haven’t tried Venice since the new patch, but With the change to not being able to stack trade routes on the same city range seems like it would be at a premium. Range might be the difference between Venice being able to fill its trade routes out and defaulting to internal/land routes just to use its slots.

Yeah but to fill them out you need many close-range routes. Hence my suggestion. Twice as many routes and almost no choice on city placement is a bad combo for filling out trade routes at max distance.

 

[janat08]

So I take it venice sucks unless you decided to puppet cities for no reason other than taking control of armies with the yields generally being inconsequential compared what you'd get in vanilla patronage (i haven't played, as I only care about venice). The guide says there're only battleships and then fairly short ranged, and I imagine airpower is still nerfed with low resource availability, not to mention that you will barely be able to protect yourself with the supply system you keep talking about rather than have a reasonable shot at taking on strong empires oversees contesting city state?

 

[CrazyG]

Venice is pretty powerful. His bonuses to puppet cities are a really big deal and include extra supply. He has some very cool national wonders to build that let you customize how to play, including one with big bonuses for naval combat. He still has the awkward start because no settlers, but overall he is quite strong I'd say.

Naval units have 1 range, but also can move after attacking. Its a change that helps the AI perform much better at naval combat, I hated it at first but I like it now.

 

[janat08]

I think that puppeting cities is a worthless pursuit even if there're no research/culture penalties, I'd rather boost tourism or something and have less reason to protect myself, building wonders and stuff that gave percentage increases worked well enough in vanilla that there was no need to seek puppeting other than as trade outpost or such, although I realize percentage improvement are not available in this mod, but I would like to imagine trying to puppet as venice is not mandatory given these facts?

 

[ashendashin]

I think that puppeting cities is a worthless pursuit even if there're no research/culture penalties, I'd rather boost tourism or something and have less reason to protect myself, building wonders and stuff that gave percentage increases worked well enough in vanilla that there was no need to seek puppeting other than as trade outpost or such, although I realize percentage improvement are not available in this mod, but I would like to imagine trying to puppet as venice is not mandatory given these facts?

...How can you possibly believe that puppets are a worthless pursuit? That's pure yields and the building process keeps happiness up well enough.

 

[ashendashin]

@janat08 Play VP before deciding on balance. Venice is perfectly capable of going on a conquering spree (for humans anyhow). In fact, playing aggressively with them is preferable in VP.

 

[janat08]

...How can you possibly believe that puppets are a worthless pursuit? That's pure yields and the building process keeps happiness up well enough.

It tantamount to cannibalism, what I was asking before is that in vanilla you'd get over 2x yields modifiers in capital be it whatever through wonders, in here you don't have percentage/modifier buildings, but otherwise there wouldve been little point in spending pop on great merchants that then incited attack, fractured defense, and did little in way of science compared to what patronage bonuses got you.

 

[ashendashin]

It tantamount to cannibalism, what I was asking before is that in vanilla you'd get over 2x yields modifiers in capital be it whatever through wonders, in here you don't have percentage/modifier buildings, but otherwise there wouldve been little point in spending pop on great merchants that then incited attack, fractured defense, and did little in way of science compared to what patronage bonuses got you.

Seriously, play Vox Populi first. It's called Statecraft now. There are modifiers, just not like vanilla, so don't worry about that. Please, please don't assume that vanilla balance is in any way worth comparing to VP.
It's called a balance overhaul for a reason.

 

[Gidoza]

I think that puppeting cities is a worthless pursuit even if there're no research/culture penalties, I'd rather boost tourism or something and have less reason to protect myself, building wonders and stuff that gave percentage increases worked well enough in vanilla that there was no need to seek puppeting other than as trade outpost or such, although I realize percentage improvement are not available in this mod, but I would like to imagine trying to puppet as venice is not mandatory given these facts?

Wait hang on - are we saying that the research penalty from having a puppet (as in Vanilla) is removed in Vox Populi?

 

[ashendashin]

Wait hang on - are we saying that the research penalty from having a puppet (as in Vanilla) is removed in Vox Populi?

Zero penalties. Venice is pretty damn strong.

Keep in mind that puppets for other civs have a 50% penalty to yields from that city, so puppets are questionable if you're not Venice.

 

[Gidoza]

Zero penalties. Venice is pretty damn strong.

Keep in mind that puppets for other civs have a 50% penalty to yields from that city.

Okay, I still need to be inquisitive - is the penalty present for non-Venice cities as puppets? (That is, if I puppet a city as NOT Venice, do my research costs go up? I mean I sure hope not if the yield penalty is 50%, because that's a step short of useless with a penalty to boot.)

 

[ashendashin]

Okay, I still need to be inquisitive - is the penalty present for non-Venice cities as puppets? (That is, if I puppet a city as NOT Venice, do my research costs go up? I mean I sure hope not if the yield penalty is 50%, because that's a step short of useless with a penalty to boot.)

There is no cost increase from puppets. Your happiness is gonna take a hit though since there's so few yields.

 

[Gidoza]

There is no cost increase from puppets. Your happiness is gonna take a hit though since there's so few yields.

Oh - how interesting! I didn't know this. So that IS a change from Vanilla. In other words - if I'm playing tall, Puppets will complement my sci/culture and give me techs or policies more quickly because the puppets aren't increasing the costs; BUT I need sufficient happiness to keep things together because they won't have the proper infrastructure. Does this sound about right? (And then I can just Raze them if I don't like them anymore - yes, I know this isn't optimal strategy, but sometimes just playing tall and not having to worry about acquiring higher tech requirements that never go away is a nice thing to know.) Just making sure I understand the situation.