Version 0.9.7 discussion

[phungus420]

I've tried separate installation of BUG 4.1 mod and interface bug with it is confirmed. I'll write about it at BUG forum, though I doubt that they would bother to fix issue with some localization.

Actually the BUG team is really big on this sort of thing. They worked their butts off to make BUG Mac compatible, and have always fixed bugs like yours when they find out about them. You should really report it to them, I'm sure they'll get on it. There may be no one with cyrillic characters to check their bug fixes though, so they may need to use you to check anything they come up with if you're willing to help out.

 

[bestbrian]

A little feedback for you, Phungus. Playing the latest version ("C"), as El Cid, and I'm just coming up on 1700 AD with Assembly Line coming in shortly (just to let you know how deep I've gone), on Marathon speed. The tech tree changes have worked out well; everything seems to be "natural". No hangs/glitches/crashes (other than the usual BTS memory bleed problems) - very stable.

Quibbles: The Conquistador in LoR is a useless UU. It comes too late to be used as an Explorer (heck, why build them when you can build Curris), and it doesn't get Medic promos (which is about the only thing Explorers are good for anyway). While the default Conq from BTS is grossly historically inaccurate, it is truly unique (the only mounted unit with terrain defense), has awesome graphics, and is just a ton of fun to play with (the most important criteria for a game, IMHO). My recc for Spain would be to restore the default Conq as the Spanish UU, or create a new one that's been advocated before ("Tercio" - a Musket replacement with a hefty bonus vs Mounted and Melee). BTW, The Barbarly Corsair is still godawful fun and extremely pretty (great job by AZ).

The whole project seems to be coming along quite nicely. No balance issues, or problems. Actually, the thing that impresses me the most is the replayability of the whole thing. I started this game, played fairly deep, and had to put it aside for a couple of weeks. When I came back to it, I decided to start over. With Start As Minors, Barb Civ, and the other components (and new random seed, ofc), it was a totally different game. That's frickin' awesome. Actually, if I get around to it I might post the start for this game - the map turned out to be alot of fun to play.

 

[phungus420]

Thanks for the feedback. With regards to the conquistador it's mainly designed to be a powerful Terra Style map UU that is great for rushing Barb Cities or backwards civs that spawned if barbarian civ was enabled in the New World; it is not meant to be a powerful UU for fighting other top slot players, but is instead meant to take down backwards civs. Is it not useful in this role? I am going to keep it as a Pathfinder replacement, so do you have any specific ideas on how you'd like to buff it so it's more suited to it's intended role (including being a cheap and useful unit to attack civs that have fallen behind on non terra maps)?

 

[bestbrian]

Thanks for the feedback. With regards to the conquistador it's mainly designed to be a powerful Terra Style map UU that is great for rushing Barb Cities or backwards civs that spawned if barbarian civ was enabled in the New World; it is not meant to be a powerful UU for fighting other top slot players, but is instead meant to take down backwards civs. Is it not useful in this role? I am going to keep it as a Pathfinder replacement, so do you have any specific ideas on how you'd like to buff it so it's more suited to it's intended role (including being a cheap and useful unit to attack civs that have fallen behind on non terra maps)?

The circumstance you described doesn't seem to apply to any games I've played. By the time Pathfinders come in, all the Barb cities are either full-fledged civs, or gone. Either way, if I want the city, I'll load up my Royal Galleons with Curris and Cannons; why mess around with Pathfinders/Conqs? Frankly, I've never built a Pathfinder for anything (kind of a waste of a unit). I'd suggest eliminating the Pathfinder class entirely, and for a second UU for Spain I'd reccommend either the BTS Conq, or the Tercio.

 

[bigfatjonny]

Actually I have been playing PerfectWorld recently (which is basically a terra map) as well.
I find that with barb world and barb civ's turned on, that by the time you discover the new world it is mostly populated and to a tech level only a few tech's down from the new world.
This didnt used to be the case with out barb civ's turned on - when you discovered the new world it would be partly populated with a couple of barb civs who were much lower level than the old world.

I can see why the new Conquistadore wouldn't be very useful in this scenario.

 

[bestbrian]

Actually I have been playing PerfectWorld recently (which is basically a terra map) as well.
I find that with barb world and barb civ's turned on, that by the time you discover the new world it is mostly populated and to a tech level only a few tech's down from the new world.
This didnt used to be the case with out barb civ's turned on - when you discovered the new world it would be partly populated with a couple of barb civs who were much lower level than the old world.

I can see why the new Conquistadore wouldn't be very useful in this scenario.

Yeah, the map I'm playing on with this El Cid game is a Perfectworld script, also. Standard-size (equates to Large, I guess - Perfectworld maps tend to be bigger than normal), with 12 Civs at start. Barbs start settling down and filling in spaces pretty quick after game start. I haven't come across any Barb cities after Astronomy that would be something a) that I would want (usually tundra garbage - the AI can have it), b) I couldn't just grab with Curris/Maces/Muskets/What Have You. The Pathfinder line just seems like a bust. Probably wouldn't be a bad idea to start a poll/survey to find out what other's experiences are with them, but if they're not being used then Civs with UUs based on them are taking a hit.

 

[VonOmar]

A poll would be a good idea I think. I never use anything beyond my first scout build and maybe 1 or 2 more scouts as circumstances dictate. Beyond that, anything requiring combat encounters makes the explorer line useless. Might as well keep your scouts around until they encounter a hostile unit, in which case it'll be dead anyway (from anything beyond a warrior).

 

[glider1]

The whole project seems to be coming along quite nicely. No balance issues, or problems. Actually, the thing that impresses me the most is the replayability of the whole thing. I started this game, played fairly deep, and had to put it aside for a couple of weeks. When I came back to it, I decided to start over. With Start As Minors, Barb Civ, and the other components (and new random seed, ofc), it was a totally different game. That's frickin' awesome. Actually, if I get around to it I might post the start for this game - the map turned out to be alot of fun to play.

Wow, great that you are enjoying it. Hopefully Jdog has read this review, as he is the genius behind these mods and needs some inspiration every now and then. It can get pretty tedious heads down in the dungeon working on these projects. It kinda creeps up on ya if you are not careful so thanks.

Cheers.

 

[bigfatjonny]

Wow, great that you are enjoying it. Hopefully Jdog has read this review, as he is the genius behind these mods and needs some inspiration every now and then. It can get pretty tedious heads down in the dungeon working on these projects. It kinda creeps up on ya if you are not careful so thanks.

Cheers.

I second that! There is no way I would still be playing vanilla BTS. If it wasnt for everyone who gets involved in these projects and puts in their own time then I think a lot of people wouldnt still be playing Civ.

A big thank you to everyone.

 

[bestbrian]

Having just taken a gander at some of the other threads in this forum, I'd like to take this opportunity to provide some more feedback. I've played further into the El Cid game I referenced earlier in the week. I specifically decided to go for a Space victory, because I wanted to play deep into the game and get a feel for the various units and to see how the game progressed. I also have some opinions on questions I read expressed in other threads in this forum.

The game has progressed to the 1920s, and my ship is just about done. Would have had it sooner, but I dialed back my research to get cash to upgrade my military. Which wouldn't have been an issue, as I was keeping a GE on hand to rush The Internet and make up the tech difference, when lo and behold, The Internet doesn't exist in LoR. Doh! It's not a wonder I often build (maybe twice before in close games, and principally to deny it to the AI), but it does have it's place in the game. I dunno, I can see arguments for keeping it, and arguments for tossing it, but I think it should remain in the game.

My current plan for this game is to get the ship launched, and then unleash my military, just to see how things play out. Just a few notes. The Supercarrier may be a bit over-powered; three planes to seven? That's a big jump. I was building fleets around four carriers (12 planes), upgraded those fleets and they now have 28. That's alot of whoop ass. Then again, the AI has humongous stacks. I dunno, I'll see how it plays out, but I'm thinking there may need to be nerf there (5? 6? I dunno).

The Steam-era naval progression seemed to work out fine. This has been a very naval oriented game, so I've actually gotten to notice alot of this in ways that I haven't for a long time (probably since Wolf). I don't think it's necessary to delete any more units (the Protected Cruiser is fine), but I would probably tweak the DE. I'd give it some anti-sub capability (just for game balance Submarines need to have a counter), and take away it's bonus vs. Steamships.

As mentioned in another thread, I'm not sure about Squad Infantry upgrading to Marines. I like having the option, as I often build a dedicated force of "Marines" in the Industrial era (acually, Riflemen with the Amphib promo), and being able to upgrade them to Infantry then Marines is kinda cool. However, I did also notice that the AI tends to build up large stacks of Marines, as it just upgrades all it's Squad Infantry to the more powerful Marine, so what should be a specialized niche unit, becomes ridiculously common. Seeing that, I'd have to come down on the side of not having Marines be an upgrade path for Squad Infantry.

I'll post another update later once I actually start a war.

 

[bestbrian]

Oh, in case anyone wants to play these out, here is the Last Save. Feel free to Dow whomever. Be advised, it's late game, with alot of units, on a standard Perfect World map, so your computer is probably going to need some juice.

Also, I'll provide the 4000BC game start save. It's a very nice 4 Gems start with some other goodies not too far away, and some really interesting geography. Yes, there were some WB tweaks to the map (not the gems, but food was added, resources were moved around a bunch of places, and the geography was altered a bit to maintain an already established theme). I won't go into too much detail, so as not to ruin things for those that want to play it out.

 

[bestbrian]

Forget everything I said about nerfing Supercarriers. Just played it out a little. With the late game air defenses, they probably need a buff. Say, Carriers carry 4, and Supercarriers carry 8.

 

[morchuflex]

...I'm not sure about Squad Infantry upgrading to Marines. ...What should be a specialized niche unit, becomes ridiculously common.

I completely agree with this.
Marines should be a niche unit, more costly than regular infantry, and with a reduced (but not zero) penalty when making amphibious attacks.

 

[phungus420]

Having just taken a gander at some of the other threads in this forum, I'd like to take this opportunity to provide some more feedback. I've played further into the El Cid game I referenced earlier in the week. I specifically decided to go for a Space victory, because I wanted to play deep into the game and get a feel for the various units and to see how the game progressed. I also have some opinions on questions I read expressed in other threads in this forum.

That's pretty useful. Is this a close game at all, or are you blowing the AI away? If it's not close, any chance you'd be willing to switch players (turn on cheatmode and then press ctrl + shift + l) to someone in a less assured spot and see how that plays out? It would be really good to get some feedback from someone that's actually clawing their way toward a late game win, then from someone who's just cruising toward an assure win.

The game has progressed to the 1920s, and my ship is just about done. Would have had it sooner, but I dialed back my research to get cash to upgrade my military. Which wouldn't have been an issue, as I was keeping a GE on hand to rush The Internet and make up the tech difference, when lo and behold, The Internet doesn't exist in LoR. Doh! It's not a wonder I often build (maybe twice before in close games, and principally to deny it to the AI), but it does have it's place in the game. I dunno, I can see arguments for keeping it, and arguments for tossing it, but I think it should remain in the game.

As in BtS the Internet is a project, and not a wonder. But it's still there, you can build it and it works fine. Being a project it's not rushable with a GE though. The only thing I've changed in LoR is the tech that allows the internet, in LoR it is available with computers isntead of in BtS which unlocks the intenet with Fiber Optics.

The Steam-era naval progression seemed to work out fine. This has been a very naval oriented game, so I've actually gotten to notice alot of this in ways that I haven't for a long time (probably since Wolf). I don't think it's necessary to delete any more units (the Protected Cruiser is fine), but I would probably tweak the DE. I'd give it some anti-sub capability (just for game balance Submarines need to have a counter), and take away it's bonus vs. Steamships.

I don't know. The more I think about it the more I feel the Protected Cruiser needs to go. I'm thinking the PC will be cut in the next update or the one after that, and a couple of tweaks will be made to the DE and Ironclad Battleship to facilitate this. The Industrial era navy just seems too busy.

As mentioned in another thread, I'm not sure about Squad Infantry upgrading to Marines. I like having the option, as I often build a dedicated force of "Marines" in the Industrial era (acually, Riflemen with the Amphib promo), and being able to upgrade them to Infantry then Marines is kinda cool. However, I did also notice that the AI tends to build up large stacks of Marines, as it just upgrades all it's Squad Infantry to the more powerful Marine, so what should be a specialized niche unit, becomes ridiculously common. Seeing that, I'd have to come down on the side of not having Marines be an upgrade path for Squad Infantry.

It's a valid point, and I will consider it. I may however just move Marines back in the tech tree, add Radio as a prereq or something like this.

Explorers and Pathfinders are useless

I will buff Pathfinders to 7 strength and maybe cut their cost slightly. Keep in mind with their withdraw and hills/forest bonuses and the fact they ignore terrain cost they are actually decent stack support units as is. Try building 1 or 2 of them and add them to your stack, you'll probably find them quite useful for scouting ahead (seeing what they can see on top of a hill), defending in hilly or forested terrain, or going for sacrificial attack against a top defender to weaken it and hopeing for a withdraw.

 

[bestbrian]

So that explains why I couldn't find The Internet to build it. Turns out Asoka had built it, and that probably explains why I found myself racing him to get the ship launched. Once again, a civ with the Enlightened trait ends up being my biggest opponent. I never really felt like I was cruising in that game (won it with a Space Vic in 1967). Seemed like it took me longer than necessary to get to Rifles/Cannons/Cavs, then I had nice window where I picked off some low-hanging civs on the closest and smallest continent. After that I felt like I was in an arms race trying to keep up with tech and arms while getting the ship done. I would have had one doozy of a resource war to gain Aluminum if Wang hadn't vollunteered to become a vassal very early in the game, and kept me supplied with the stuff. I might actually dig out an early save and forget the ship and go straight for a Dom Vic; that's more my style and alot less tedious. Random thoughts:

The problem with the Pathfinder is that it's an Explorer that comes in after Astronomy and Muskets. By that point of the game (heck, after Paper) you should have the whole world mapped out already, and with BarbCiv, there aren't any backwards tribes to easily pick off (and if you want to, you've got Galleons to carry real troops that get xp and upgrade to other combat troops). The Pathfinder is just a niche Recon Unit, that may, or may not be useful, depending on the game, and map, but it's never going to matter much, and wouldn't be missed. It definitely should not be anyone's UU. I still think Spain should get the default BTS Conq back to pair up with the Royal Galleon when the civs expand to 2 UUs. As it is now, the LoR Conq is a strength 8 mounted unit, that is contemporaneous with Curris, a strength 12 mounted unit. But I don't want to beat a dead horse, so I'll leave this be.

Marines coming in at Industrialism is fine, it's just that Squad Infantry shouldn't promote to Marines; their next progression should be > Mot Inf > Mech Inf, and Marines don't upgrade at all until Assault Mechs come in (I didn't even know they were in the game ). And I still feel that the Protective Cruiser is fine. I used it in this El Cid game, where I upgraded Ironclad Cruisers to Pro Cruisers, then to Destroyers. Actually, the dud in there seems to be the Ironclad Battleship, but what's it going to hurt to keep it?

Gunnery Control seems like a weird one, btw. In base BTS, naval units are eligible for Blitz after Combat 3, but in LoR they get Gunnery Control after Drill 2 or Nav I; that's just weird. Why not after Combat 2, also? I didn't realize this until late in the game, when I couldn't figure out how come my Combat promoted Battleships couldn't unlock the promo. Nav 1? Who'dve thunk?

These are all very minor quibbles, btw. Nicely done.

 

[phungus420]

@Guest01 and anyone else that has experienced a lost of interface with the recent update:

EF just responded to the cyrillic characters issue that causes this. Because I do not have cyrillic characters in my mod's path, and don't even know how to create them, I need someone out there who does to test this. I'm uploading a zipped BugPath.py file that hopefully fixes the issue that destroys the interface for users with non roman characters in their mod folder's path. Extract this file to the ...LoR/Assets/Python/BUG folder and have it overwrite the original BugPath.py file. Then start up the game, please let me know if that works, as I'll then know I have a fix for this in the next update.

 

[Guest01]

@Guest01 and anyone else that has experienced a lost of interface with the recent update:

EF just responded to the cyrillic characters issue that causes this. Because I do not have cyrillic characters in my mod's path, and don't even know how to create them, I need someone out there who does to test this. I'm uploading a zipped BugPath.py file that hopefully fixes the issue that destroys the interface for users with non roman characters in their mod folder's path. Extract this file to the ...LoR/Assets/Python/BUG folder and have it overwrite the original BugPath.py file. Then start up the game, please let me know if that works, as I'll then know I have a fix for this in the next update.

I am sorry for my idleness in reporting issue to BUG team.

But I'm glad to say that your fix solved the issue so LoR working fine now Should I still inform BUG team about problem?

 

[phungus420]

No, since that fix works I'll let EF know. Thanks for the prompt response.

 

[bigfatjonny]

Im playing through the industrial in to the modern era at the moment.

There are a few things that aren't quite fitting together for me at the moment & I thought I would give some feedback.

It mainly revolves around the machine gun unit.

Firstly im not sure what the gas turbine tech adds to game, and secondly it should come before the tech for infantry not after it. Previously MG came with railroad which was the tech in between rifles and infantry, now it is a tech choice whether to go for MG or infantry (with assembly line, a very useful tech).

Secondly it is far to over powered at the moment and is useful for way too long, I think this is due to the +100% gunpowder bonus.
In my mind the MG is a world war 1 type trench unit that was used in a gunpowder era where there were thousands of men lost. It doesn't make sense that it still gets bonuses against paratroopers who have been dropped behind enemy lines and attack from behind. After WW1 trench type combat was obsoleted, it doesn't make sense that it still works against modern units.
I would suggest changing MG to +100% infantry and/or rifles. This shortens its life & effectiveness and encourages upgrading to antitank or anti air (trench units).

Also I would like to see motorized infantry come earlier as it represents late WW2 infantry better.

Any thoughts?

 

[caliban02]

Interesting bug:

1. Conquered city from Korea.
2. It was a holy city, so it revolted -- I granted it independence, it became Vietnam.
3. At some point, perhaps because of the independence, Vietnam had an open borders agreement with me.
4. Vietnam eventually became a vassal of Khmer.
5. Even though I could get rid of open borders agreement with Khmer, I could not with Vietnam -- there was no option to cancel it in the "current agreements" part of diplomacy.
6. Eventually I went to war with Khmer and Vietnam, and even though our units were fighting, we still had an open borders agreement, which led to some interesting results, including units not being removed from each others' territories after DOW.
7. Finally fixed problem by eliminating Vietnam.