Version 1.7 feedback

[davidlallen]

We have a hint for mulitplayer game oos problem.
The oos message came right after anyone from us attacks smuggler unit.

Please see this post for some instructions. If you can follow these instructions and post the files, it will help us to debug the OOS problem.

 

[Lone Wolf]

I think, I understood the reason of all this: the reason is, that I use "use english language" setting on Russian version. But Russian is a default language. ... I checked in on this mod and on planefall mod. Situation is the same. If "English" is used, there are a lot of mistakes in text (even no text at all or the same word (e.g. the name of faction) is used for different objects). If "Russian" is used, I have a mix of Russian text and text from mod.

Are you using the official 1C localization? Say thanks to them.

Thanks for the assistance. I think I understand, but I am not sure. There are three types of multi-language text files in DW: (a) the "vanilla" ones, (b) the DW specific ones, (c) other ones provided by other modpacks such as RevDCM, etc. All of them have the strings in five languages, say language 1,2,3,4,5. Language 1 is always English. I guess the localized version you have has new versions of (a) where the second language is replaced with Russian.

In the official 1C localized version Russian is the first language, with the second being English. That causes the language mix-up. (The thought of Russian not being the first was unbearable for the patriotic translators' hearts ). If English would've been the first, Inpu'd be able to get 100% english by setting the language to 1.

 

[Ahriman]

I have received zero playtest feedback so far on Mentats.

I haven't had a chance to test these much.
The military training one seemed pretty powerful.
The gold one didn't seem to be working; where should I be looking in the UI to see if it is working? Where is that gold income recorded?
It didn't seem to be present in the city's gold income modifier report.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I think you need to tell the player what religions one can or cannot found, and what religions one can or cannot convert to. I'm playing a Corrino game, and discovered Jihad first, Mahdi was founded next door, so I conquered that city but lo and behold, I cannot convert to it, which was not SPECIFICALLY prohibited at least by the Dunepedia.
A table format would be useful.

 

[davidlallen]

I think you need to tell the player what religions one can or cannot found, and what religions one can or cannot convert to. I'm playing a Corrino game, and discovered Jihad first, Mahdi was founded next door, so I conquered that city but lo and behold, I cannot convert to it, which was not SPECIFICALLY prohibited at least by the Dunepedia.
A table format would be useful.

I apologize for this second documentation error. I will check again to make sure the documentation is correct. The code itself is the ForbiddenReligion field on the civilization in the file assets/xml/civilizations/civ4civilizationinfos.xml.

Do you feel a table is better than listing the information in each religion section in the pedia? I am not sure how to draw a table in the pedia, I think it only supports text. Where can we put this information so people can find it more easily?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Maybe just put it in the main screen when you select the civ (i.e. forbidden religions)?

Playing the Corrino several times makes me realize why it's so much more powerful--imperialistic is really key in early game. All the other civs when played by the AI have 4-5 cities max by early-mid game, but the Emperor usually has at least 6-8. Susan Sarandon...sorry, Princess Wensicia is especiallly good since she also gets workers cheap. When played by a REX human early game domination is almost assured.

Is it possible to give imperialistic to some other faction too? I can think of Alia as being "imperialistic." Can Farad'n (imperialistic, political) be introduced as a leader for the Atreides, even though his last name is Corrino?

 

[davidlallen]

Maybe just put it in the main screen when you select the civ (i.e. forbidden religions)?

I am pretty sure you mean the third screen of the "play now!" wizard, which shows the LH picture and then the text below that is where I could add this. Correct? That is what I call the "civ hover help". The same text appears when you hover the mouse over a civ icon in several screens. It also appears in the Dawn Of Man dialog, although most people do not realize that the text displayed there has a scrollbar.

That's a good idea; I will do it.

Playing the Corrino several times makes me realize why it's so much more powerful--imperialistic is really key in early game ... Is it possible to give imperialistic to some other faction too?

Interesting. I had carefully counted up the number of times each trait appears to make sure each trait appears about the same number of times. But, I failed to notice that all three times imperialist appears, it is in house corrino. A spreadsheet with the current traits for each leader is at this post. Do you have any suggestions?

 

[Ahriman]

I see no problem with only Corrino being Imperialistic.

Is it really that powerful a trait?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Yes, because it costs a lot less to build settlers initially, which makes expanding much less expensive. (I think it's something like 15-17 moves vs. 10-12 moves for a size 3 city with unhealthiness)
For example, on an standard map I just won a diplomatic victory when I had 26 cities, while the AI second to me only has 6 max. I captured only about 6 cities from other civs and 2 from smugglers.
On another note, some other observations:

1. Diplomatic victory is probably the easiest of them all. Just a little water discipline and Arrakis Paradise, and in no time you'll be close to the limit. Then a little war for a vassal who will tip you over the edge.

2. The Mentats' effects aren't very clear. I'm not even sure if they are working half the time.

3. I chose Technocracy in the end because I couldn't found Quizarate (why? and nobody else did--strange), but I'm not very clear what the benefit was. There were no religious buildings associated with it so I did it mostly for happiness. Can you make this a little clearer?

Spoiler :

 

[davidlallen]

This type of quick AAR is very helpful. Can you put up a save game from near the end? There are some statistics I would like to get. (Please list exactly which patch version were you using so I can bring up the game easily.)

Would you be interested in trying an Ix game? I am curious if the mech units are overpowered, underpowered or just boring.

1. Do you feel that imperialist made all the difference in your game? That is, if you were to replace imperialist with some other trait and play the same game, would you do a lot worse? (This change is easy to make in the xml and then you can pick up from whatever save game you have.) If not, what else is causing the gap between your growth rate and the AI growth rate?

2. Whenever you have a mentat, it should have some specialty promotion say X. Whatever city the mentat is in, should have a building called Mentat X. Hover over the building and you will see the exact effect. I am not sure if it is "clever" or just a "hack" to put all this into the buildings, but basically the Mentat is a portable building.

3. Qizarate cannot be founded by Corrino or BT. (This is actually mentioned in the pedia, and in the upcoming 1.7.0.6 it is mentioned in the civilization hover help also.) You can read more about the design and goals in this thread. Qizarate is intended to be a fairly powerful late game religion which grants happiness and health at the expense of innovation. Its temple doesn't do much. The Golden Path building grants huge happiness and health bonuses but reduces your GPP rate and trade income. I am not sure anybody has played it much; one of Ahriman's concerns is that it may come too late to do any good. Do you think we should tweak this somehow?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

The problem with happiness being Quizarate's forte is that by late game, your finances should be so in shape that just turning up the dial for culture should handle happiness fine. It does replace other religions in the city which may or may not be so desirable (I had to replace Imperial in some of my cities for the happiness)...BTW, does spreading Quizarate destroy other religious buildings (e.g. temples and holy shrines)

Most of my cities were founded before mid game, and some spots were clearly meant to be colonized, so yes, I feel that cheap settlers made a lot of difference. This might also explain why the Harkonnens are so weak in almost every game--they don't use their troops well and have no other benefit in peace time.

I just noticed the Mentat buildings--thanks for pointing that out. Can you put a note in the pedia about them?

I think religious and holy war victory need to be a little less stringent (maybe 75% and less land respectively) because otherwise you might just as well win a domination victory.

 

[Ahriman]

For example, on an standard map I just won a diplomatic victory when I had 26 cities, while the AI second to me only has 6 max

What difficulty, and which AI settlement pattern?

I think you will find the new AI city founding script behaves very differently.

If we think Imperialistic trait is too strong, we can tweak its affects. No need to give it to non-Corrino factions.

But saying "well, its too strong because it allows me to settle too fast" isn't really enough. Beyond the early game, Imperialistic trait is weak. How does it compare to the power of other traits?

1. Diplomatic victory is probably the easiest of them all. Just a little water discipline and Arrakis Paradise, and in no time you'll be close to the limit. Then a little war for a vassal who will tip you over the edge.

Again, difficulty level and new city settlement script?
The AI grows much better (higher pop) with the new city settlement.

Your game also does not indicate to me that dipplomatic victory is too powerful. You have 319 population, the biggest other one is 80. You could easily achieve *any* victory condition with that kind of advantage.

I do worry a little about the re-enabled whipping; it might be worth testing pop sizes with whipping enabled/disabled with the new AI city placement script.
Every trait should be powerful.

2. The Mentats' effects aren't very clear. I'm not even sure if they are working half the time.

I think the intended effects are pretty clear from their promotion text mouseover, I agree its often unclear whether or not they are actually working.

Whatever city the mentat is in, should have a building called Mentat X. Hover over the building and you will see the exact effect

Ok, I will look for this. This is created passively if the mentat starts the turn in the city?

your finances should be so in shape that just turning up the dial for culture should handle happiness fine

This argument makes no sense to me. Increasing culture slider is a terribly inefficient way of providing longrun happiness, its really not good strategy (look at the reduction in beakers and gold it is causing! if you can live with that large reduction, then you have already won). The economic cost is very high relative to the benefit. Using Quizarate will not hurt your economy nearly as much.

It does replace other religions in the city which may or may not be so desirable (I had to replace Imperial in some of my cities for the happiness)...

Imperial is displaced when *any* other religion is spread to the city. By design. The whole point of Imperial is as an early game status-quo state that can either survive strongly, or be displaced by new ideas. It has a very fast natural spread, but is designed to be the easiest to displace.
Unfortunately I think we rarely see Imperial factions change and follow something else, because factions just keep reconverting with missionaries. I tried to limit this by making the Imperial missionary national limit 1, but this doesn't seem to be enough. Maybe we should also make it movement 1, or even remove the missionary entirely?
It also has the lowest direct value. The benefits of Imperial are mostly diplomatic.

Quizarate wipes out all other religions in the city. Again by design. It is supposed to be for establishing a late-game religious victory. Wipe the world clean with the One True Faith.

BTW, does spreading Quizarate destroy other religious buildings (e.g. temples and holy shrines)

No. It woudl be a bit too powerful if you coudl wipe out the shrines of other religions with missionaries alone.

I think religious and holy war victory need to be a little less stringent (maybe 75% and less land respectively) because otherwise you might just as well win a domination victory.

Sounds reasonable. What is the current % requirement for religious victory?

 

[yiumlaien]

I've just started with this cool Mod, so I cannot say if this is something coming with 1.7 or not... maybe it is just intended and I missed the reason for this, but hopefully you can explain it to me:

Why is there no way to get the religion Mahdi spread to my cities?
In the help, it tells me that this religion cannot build any kind of priest, but it will spread automatically to any conquered city... That does not help me to spread it to those cities which I already own at the time where I convert to Mahdi... And I cannot conquer my own cities, can I?

So, am I missing something, or is this a wanted weakness of this religion?

Thanks.

p.s.: I love this mod!! Great job!

 

[Ahriman]

So, am I missing something, or is this a wanted weakness of this religion?

It has a very low natural spread rate, and its intended to be harder to spread peacefully. But it easily spreads instantly via conquest. Its a warmonger religion, its not designed to work as well with a peaceful builder/colonizer strat.

Building the shrine will boost the natural spread rate too.

 

[yiumlaien]

OK, but if you look at it with a philosophical eye there should be some kind of prayers who convince people to believe at their one-and-only leader...

In game-techniques I would like to see a inquisitor-like unit which can remove all other religions from a city, and spread the Mahdi religion instead... This could even give some negative diplomatic effect to leaders with other religions, or/and take some turns to do...

It's just not very logical to go on a holy war and conquer & convert one city after another while your very own old deepest settlements, even your capital, still believes to whatever other very unholy religion... it disturbs my picture in mind of those blue-eyed fremen fanatics rushing into Harkonnen cities... hard to imagine that their home-sietch is full of imperialist mums

Alternatively, a religion like this could also work like:
You have to spread the religion exclusively in ALL your cities (with such an inquisitor-like unit), BEFORE you can build those cheap fanatic military units... Those units are (in my eyes) the military arm of a civ which deeply believes in the myths of the Mahdi... so, they should only be able to build those units when they all believe.

 

[Ahriman]

OK, but if you look at it with a philosophical eye there should be some kind of prayers who convince people to believe at their one-and-only leader...
In game-techniques I would like to see a inquisitor-like unit which can remove all other religions from a city, and spread the Mahdi religion instead...

This is what the Quizarate religion does. If that's the gamestyle you want, then use Quizarate. We don't want overlap between Mahdi and Quizarate; each religion is designed to be different.

Mahdi is a warmonger religion, and that's it.

You have to spread the religion exclusively in ALL your cities (with such an inquisitor-like unit), BEFORE you can build those cheap fanatic military units...

You have to have Mahdi in a particular city to build the Temple there, which is required for the Zealot. Why should it matter if the religion is in some other decision elsewhere?
Also, this would be the opposite of the gameplay goal. The gameplay goal is to promote an early rush of zealots. If you have to somehow peacefully spread internally before you can start building, then you lose a lot of the value from doing this (because you give enemies time to build stronger defenses).

Still on the agenda somewhere (David, I think I didn't see this in the list?) is to have an sdk change so that the Mahdi religion shrine provides a +10% military production bonus per city with the Mahdi religion, to create a superunitfactory, rather than providnig gold.

I also think we should consider adding a higher level unit later in the game that the zealot can upgrade to.

But I'm opposed to maknig Mahdi something easily spread peacefully; we want each religion to play very differently. If you want to spread Mahdi, you have to conquer.

 

[yiumlaien]

OK, thanks for the explanations. I'll take a closer look at that other religion ;-)

 

[Ahriman]

No problem! Glad you're enjoying the mod.

This kind of feedback is very useful in that it helps highlight where we need to focus on for documentation - though I suspect the problem is that most people just dive into the mod without reading any of the civiliopedia changes documentation that we have already

 

[davidlallen]

But saying "well, its too strong because it allows me to settle too fast" isn't really enough.

I think he said it clearly enough and you can see it in the save game: he had 4x the population of the next largest civ. He feels it is due to imperialist. I would like two experiments: (1) play the same game or similar game without imperialist, perhaps by editing the xml, (2) if the game was played without the new AI settlement pattern in 1.7.0.4, try a similar game with that. This seems to boost the AI population by 30% in some tests, not 4x, but maybe if the AI's get out there faster there is less space for the human player to fill up.

I do worry a little about the re-enabled whipping; it might be worth testing pop sizes with whipping enabled/disabled with the new AI city placement script.

That is a valid worry; I have given the instructions previously about locally modifying the xml to remove this. Search for "Hurrys" in the forum (not "hurries") and reverse what is written there.

This kind of feedback is very useful in that it helps highlight where we need to focus on for documentation - though I suspect the problem is that most people just dive into the mod without reading any of the civiliopedia changes documentation that we have already

This is a good software design challenge. We want players who never read the civilopedia to still be able to figure it out from the hover help and gameplay. This is a challenging goal, so the civilopedia text is there as a backup. If players cannot figure out an effect using either the hover help or the pedia, we should improve the hover help somehow. Specific suggestions are always welcome.

 

[davidlallen]

It's just not very logical to go on a holy war and conquer & convert one city after another while your very own old deepest settlements, even your capital, still believes to whatever other very unholy religion... it disturbs my picture in mind of those blue-eyed fremen fanatics rushing into Harkonnen cities... hard to imagine that their home-sietch is full of imperialist mums

I agree with this. There should be a way to speed up spread of Mahdi within your own territory. I am not sure it is possible, but perhaps the Zealot unit could also have a missionary convert action button which *only* works in your own cities. Mahdi players tend to have a large number of Zealots, so using up a couple of them to spread your own religion at home seems reasonable.

One complication as always, is whether the AI would do this. It may take another unit with special AI so that it only moves to my own cities without the religion, and doesn't get built if there are no cities like that.