Version 1.7 feedback

[davidlallen]

...but Holy War is probably doable.

We can adjust the percentages easily. In the screenshot, holy war is 50,50 and religious is 80. Should we raise or lower some?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Well, it wasn't accidental. About 3/4 of the way through I realized I can try religious or holy war victories, but even after I turned down the culture it was too late. (I had both Feudal Fiefs and Altars of Shai-Hulud, in adddition to the Orbital Satellite).

I think a more reasonable holy war victory would be 40% of land (50% religion still) and religious victory should be 70%, otherwise it's they are just variations of domination/diplomatic, i.e. controlling more land than your opponents rather than spreading religion peacefully to them.

 

[Ahriman]

I'm just surprised about the culture, because we have considerably less culture than in vanilla, and culture wins are already annoying to reach in vanilla.

It sounds like you were using the culture slider a lot?

Obviously, if your economy is big enough, that can lead to a lot of culture.

But I don't see that as a problem, since it would probably be more effective if you kept the commerce in beakers or gold and conquered everyone.

 

[Ajidica]

I tried out 1.7, and wow. It has really improved.
First off, I would like to ask permission to use your music and some art assets in my mod. In return, here is a link to all the middle eastern themed music you will ever need:
http://www.twcenter.net/forums/showthread.php?t=274922
(scroll down to post three. You do have to dl the mod though.)
A few things I noticed:
>First, use more quotes from Dune for the techs. Its not like there is any shortage of quotes.
Eg: For any thopter based tech you can use the one from Duke Leto: "On Caladan we ruled by air and sea. Here we need desert power."
And for the sandworm tech: "Bless the Maker and His water. Bless His comings and His goings. May His passage cleanse the world, and He keep the world for His people."
>Some thopters need more warlike names. The Beesting Interceptor? Its not like there is any lack of haxk names for the Atreides.
>A minor thing, but Irulan shouldn't be charismatic. In the books it says she is rather quiet and boring.
>Ix has too 'techy' music. Perhaps something more Industrial and less electronic. Its not until Heretics that it is revealed Ix is building thinking machines IIRC.
>I don't know if you need a theme for the Harkonnenns, but perhaps them staining the enviroment would work. My rational for that is in the Great Revolt books, Giedi Prime is decribed as being a verdant paradise, but by the time of the House books, Geidi Prime is decribed as a land of oil streaked sky and polution. So perhaps they get more benefit out of resources but eventualy those resources dissapear (with a popup letting you know in advanced) forcing you to go on the offensive to get more resources. It seems to fit the Harkonnen idea of 'use it then lose it.'

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Trying Ix now, can't found Quizarate after bulbing Academies (nowhere does it state Ix can't found it, but I think it would be against their technology-oriented society).

I think with the Ix and Harkonnens (who have no advantage in great people or finances), the only possibility of winning is grabbing land, biding time until the tech is in (due to high maintenance), and then an all-out war with nukes.

 

[davidlallen]

I would like to ask permission to use your music and some art assets in my mod.

I am sure there is no problem in using the art assets. The music is ripped from commercial places; I guess if we use it in our mod, you can use it in yours. Not for profit, etc, etc, etc.

First, use more quotes from Dune for the techs. Its not like there is any shortage of quotes.

Great! Please take a look at all the places where the tech says, "Stub quote for xxx tech", and give us any specific quotes you can think of. Several people have volunteered to do this, and we have gotten one or two at a time, but there are dozens we don't have yet. Please help out!

Some thopters need more warlike names. The Beesting Interceptor? Its not like there is any lack of haxk names for the Atreides.

Great! Please give us any specific suggestions.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

So I have the BG as vassals voluntarily (even though I DOW'd on them initially to get the land now north of them) and got them to give me a Sister Covenant. Just converted a Corrino city. I'm going to try a domination victory here by first converting them nuking the last city and attacking by surprise, then all their other troops outside cities will disappear.
Interesting, then I find a BG city flipped to me with no military but an unpromoted Mentat, who I'm not going to delete since he still seems to give the military mentat building.
BTW, the AI does not value Sapho Juice and gives it away freely (got some from Harkonnens who hate me).


Addendum: Corrinos declare on me after I convert their 2nd city. Here I'm at war with them, just converted a 3rd city but their troops are still inside "my" city. Can't airlift units into it which is very strange, I wonder what will happen when it comes out of rebellion.
(It got captured back in about 3 moves, unclear what happened though. Eventually I forced peace with Landsraad Council and then stole 2 more cities during the 10 turns of peace, then killed off Corrino)


Diplo win (didn't have the patience for a conquest win but note how many ICBMs I built.


BTW, it says Ix has no unique units, but I think they are the only civ able to build spiders and tarantulas (very strong and relatively cheap unit for its strength), and also it has no unique buildings, but Ixian Skunkworks is only able to be built by Ix.

 

[Ahriman]

got them to give me a Sister Covenant

Just converted a Corrino city

Sisterhood Covenant shouldn't be allowing Reverend Mothers; it should only be allowing Sayyadinas, no?
Other factions shouldnt' be able to build their own Reverend Mothers and get their political spy missions. Those are intended to be for the BF faction only.

 

[davidlallen]

an unpromoted Mentat, who I'm not going to delete since he still seems to give the military mentat building.

There may be some bug here. Are you seeing any python exceptions?

BTW, the AI does not value Sapho Juice and gives it away freely (got some from Harkonnens who hate me).

It has some value; there was a discussion on the offworld trade thread on the different values. We may need to tune this.

BTW, it says Ix has no unique units, but I think they are the only civ able to build spiders and tarantulas (very strong and relatively cheap unit for its strength), and also it has no unique buildings, but Ixian Skunkworks is only able to be built by Ix.

There is a difference between a UU (which is a variation of another existing unit) and a unit which cannot be built by any other civ. Some of the Ixian units are the second type, and so is the Skunkworks. If you look at the hover help for the civ, then you will see these units listed under "special abilities". Some other mech units can be built by anybody who has the "Ixian Weaponry" resource.

Sisterhood Covenant shouldn't be allowing Reverend Mothers; it should only be allowing Sayyadinas, no?

It is the other way around. Other civs can build RM but not Sayyadinas.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

No python exceptions at all with the generic mentat.
So Reverend Mothers aren't unique units either then, since you can build them with a Sisterhood Covenant. One more reason never to destroy the BG but leave them a little fiefdom to demand their resources from.
I like the fact that you can switch the Saudaukars' allegiance after you capture the city that has that off-world resource, just like Paul did.

 

[davidlallen]

No python exceptions at all with the generic mentat.

I will try to figure this out next week when I have access to the game again.

I like the fact that you can switch the Saudaukars' allegiance after you capture the city that has that off-world resource, just like Paul did.

I had not thought of that. That is probably a bug. What do other people think about capturing a landing stage which is giving a UR?

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Why are extra off-world resources a bug? I quote Wikipedia for a concise summary of what happened:

Using the Bene Gesserit compulsion technique called the Voice, Paul himself manages to compel the Sardaukar Captain Aramsham to humiliate himself by surrendering. However, Aramsham's Sardaukar stoicism is so great that will not even give his name until Paul uses the Voice again. Aramsham, the epitome of a loyal soldier, finally submits to his sworn enemy, symbolically sealing the doom of the old Corrino order. When, following the Battle of Arrakeen, Paul tells a captured Sardaukar officer (of the "blond, chisel-featured caste" said to be "synonymous with rank" in the Sardaukar) to bring a message to the Emperor, he at first stoically ignores Paul; only Paul's warning that "your Emperor may die" causes the captured officer to agree to take the message. The defeat of the Sardaukar and Paul's stranglehold on the spice supply allows him to depose Shaddam, marry his eldest daughter Princess Irulan, and ascend the throne. Paul indicates that he would order the restoration of the ecology of Salusa Secundus as part of his plan to exile Shaddam and his family to the devastated world.

During the events of Children of Dune (1976), Princess Wensicia, younger daughter of Shaddam IV, initiates a plot for her family and the Sardaukar to return to power. By this time, Paul has allowed the Corrinos to retain only a relative small Sardaukar force. He has improved conditions on Salusa under the guise of making the planet more hospitable for the exiled Corrinos, but with the intent to render it an ineffective training ground for more soldiers. Seeing this motive, Wensicia's son Farad'n has tried to maintain the strict discipline which keeps the Sardaukar at their best. However, Wensicia's efforts fail, Farad'n voluntarily surrenders the army to the new Emperor, Paul's son Leto Atreides II.

So essentially, when you have a vassal, its home world's resources are surrendered to the master, either if you control the city that has the off-world resource (won in war), or demanding the resource from the vassal (like I did with the BG). What's wrong with that?

 

[davidlallen]

So essentially, when you have a vassal, its home world's resources are surrendered to the master, either if you control the city that has the off-world resource (won in war), or demanding the resource from the vassal (like I did with the BG). What's wrong with that?

Thanks for the details. Getting a UR from a vassal is fine. However, in fact just conquering the city with the landing stage is enough to grant you the resource. So even if the civ with the UR contract is stronger than you, but you capture that one city, you will control the resource. Would you agree that is not desirable?

In previous versions up through 1.7.0.5, spice income was handled by a corporation which was guaranteed to be destroyed when its city was captured. But the corporation was re-foundable (via an sdk change I made). This way no civ could wind up with two spice corps.

Assuming we agree the UR should stay with the original civ and not go to anybody who conquers the city, I will figure out a way to do something similar for UR.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Maybe make the landing stage still be in the city, but whatever resource you choose appears in the capital, so that if the capital is captured, the resource moves with it.

Another way (which makes more sense) is to have the resource be freed up if a city with a landing stage is captured. This would give more incentive for capitulating an enemy rather than destroying him, since they can still rebuild a landing stage to reclaim that resource FOR YOU.

Also, I find that other than labor contract, Sardaukar, Ginaz (which I rarely use but I get it anyway to deprive the AI of it) and Sapho Juice, all the other resources don't have extra benefits that would make me want them, because they are just for happiness or health without extra synergy with other resources or improvements. At least for the current patch, I usually try to get Sardaukar and labor contract, and ask for Sapho Juice from the AI (because it gives it away for free), and if Sardaukar is used up, then Ginaz.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

Some observations:
1. When a tile has been terraformed to have open water, you cannot change the improvement that's already built on it.
2. Thorpters have a promotion against guardsmen, but cannot attack cities (which is a total waste since guardsmen are rarely outside cities except for Laza Tigers)
3. The city manager is really screwed up. A lot of times it will actually avoid growth (to the point of starving) to work desert tiles. And the big money bag associated with a town is no more profitable than a desert tile sometimes, while a priest seems to give as much money as a town.

 

[AnotherPacifist]

I can't get the Harkonnen UP to work. It says I've captured a slave, but he doesn't appear anywhere.

I think both this problem and the religion founding problem might have something to do with numbering. Is there a particular way that the numbering is off by 1? (which may also explain why in several games I can't found Technocracy after I get Mechanization first).

 

[davidlallen]

As mentioned today on the PYL thread, we believe the funny religious founding results are due to tech diffusion. We are not sure why, but could you confirm this by starting a game with the custom game screen, and ensuring tech diffusion is not checked?

Thank you for reporting this bug about Harkonnen slaves. When I added the feature for Fremen to capture vehicles, I shared this code and added a damage level so that Fremen captured vehicles are 90% damaged. However, stupidly I set the damage level of a captured slave to 100% damaged when I meant 0%, so the game deletes the unit. I have fixed this and the fix will be part of 1.7.1 on Sunday.

 

[davidlallen]

Here are some collected replies. Some other interesting points I am still studying.

Thopters have a promotion against guardsmen, but cannot attack cities

How weird. The combat odds display, but the attack itself is prevented. This is definitely not the intended behavior. I will try to figure out why this happened.

3. The city manager is really screwed up.

It seems like we need another round of designing improvements, followed by a study to see which tile types the AI prefers, followed by somehow adjusting the AI to make better selections of tiles to work. It is important, but painful.

Another way (which makes more sense) is to have the resource be freed up if a city with a landing stage is captured.

That is a good idea. I will try to figure out how to do that.

Also, I find that other than labor contract, Sardaukar, Ginaz (which I rarely use but I get it anyway to deprive the AI of it) and Sapho Juice, all the other resources don't have extra benefits that would make me want them

There is a new design proposed for the other contracts at this post. The idea is that every contract should be equally rewarding, in different ways, to make the decision difficult. Do you think the new design will accomplish that better?

When Corrino gets a landing stage and builds strength 14 Sardaukar, they are too powerful.

(I can't find the exact reference but I am pretty sure you suggested this.)

Actually, Sardaukar also require personal shields tech, which is pretty far along the tech tree. The other units there also have strength around 14. So I think this is OK. Did I miss something?

 

[God-Emperor]

Another way (which makes more sense) is to have the resource be freed up if a city with a landing stage is captured.

That is a good idea. I will try to figure out how to do that.

Can you just set the contract buildings to have iConquestProb of 0, so that they are automatically destroyed when a city is captured? Or do you store available contracts in python and adjust the list when a contract is selected, rather than removing things from the list by checking for the buildings each time, and therefore also need to adjust the list when a city is captured which has such a building in it (or switch to scanning each civ for contract buildings to modify the list when a landing stage is built)?

 

[davidlallen]

Or do you store available contracts in python and adjust the list when a contract is selected

Yes, that is the current implementation. Your suggestion to rebuild the list from scratch by looping all the cities in the game and looking for all these buildings would solve this problem. I suppose that completing a landing stage building is infrequent enough that building the list from scratch would not hurt the runtime too much; I will try that out. There is a middle approach involving detecting the destruction of a contract building and re-adding its UR to the list as available; but there is no onBuildingDestroyed callback, and faking it seems risky.