Version 1.8 Feedback

deliverator said:
Cool. The strategy text is quite lacking and you're probably the most qualified person to write it...
I will try to finish up this weekend.

@ Ahriman, if you can post what you have, I will blast it into the text files. If it does not exactly match with the selection of units/buildings in 1.9 beta 1, that is no problem. I can write a script which will also highlight any remaining units/buildings in 1.9 beta 1 with no strategy text.
 
Hey guys, I see you are doing splendid! As for promotion of the mod, how about good old wikipedia to take note of it? I like editing Wiki, but I am rather very busy for a comin week, so if someone feels like it...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Dune_computer_and_video_games#Video_games
http://dune.wikia.com/wiki/Category:Video_games

PS I like the idea of Kwisatz Haderach being accidentally born at any house... like it happened with Paul! ;) Well, i see the game balance IS important.

PPS Is it just me or is Face dancers' "Poison water" so much poorer an ability than "Foster unhappiness"? I take into account there is not really a surplus of happiness for most of the time, though extra health is still easy achievable (Deliverator pronounced it will be changed).
Let's take an example: city with Pop 8, all the producing fields are down, all the water (-16 or -20!), hammers, solaris... diminishing pop follows very quickly. With poison water (-15 MAX), it is only a good chance of loosing one citizen, with all face dancers' bonuses - maybe two, production unaffected. First effect lasts for 8 turns, the second - 5 turns (or more with bonuses?).
Now, with a, say, 16 pop city, unhappiness still halves the city production, and poison does what? with a water tank so full at this level, there is a thin chace of causing anything but a stagnancy of growth! Big deal, horrible Tleilaxu plagues! The price of both missions is just the same, so posioning is an option for hard-core role-players only?

I would suggest doubling the severity of all the posioning and still maybe it shouldn't wear off gradually? Increased cost may be necessary, though making "unhappiness" more expensive seems more like it.. Why to destroy production if you can just slow it so much for so many turns? (gov will preserve water as a priority).
 
So, Civ V has been out for four days now. Not to sure how much I like it. I was wondering what the status of mods will be? I've noticed that on most of the modder pages, things have sort of puttered out around August. It's like every on is waiting for Civ V. Okay, it's out, so is Civ IV mods dead and everyone will be moving towards exporting to Civ V or what?

Personally the only time I ever play 'vanilla' civ is right when the game comes out. After playing the mods (especially Rise of Mankind) where you are use to more gradual unit change, it is always a shock to have the larger unit changes in regular Civ. That and the fact I tend to either play Dune, Orbis (modmod of Fall From Heaven II) or Planetfall, the status of mods is important.
 
I think it's too soon to tell. We know that all sdk and python changes will need to be thrown away and redone from scratch. But, because of the general gameplay changes, the exact design of the mods "may or may not" need to be thrown away. Probably a lot needs to be thrown away and redesigned.

My guess is that half the mods will be abandoned because the devs went purely to civ5, and half will still live because the devs still like civ 4. Ask back in a couple of weeks, when people have gotten over the first rush of civ 5.

I am curious about art. It wasn't clear to me if art from civ 4, units and their animations, and buildings, would be usable in civ 5. I'm afraid to wander into the civ 5 threads because of high volume, so the answer is probably already known.
 
So, Civ V has been out for four days now. Not to sure how much I like it. I was wondering what the status of mods will be? I've noticed that on most of the modder pages, things have sort of puttered out around August. It's like every on is waiting for Civ V. Okay, it's out, so is Civ IV mods dead and everyone will be moving towards exporting to Civ V or what?

It is inevitable that Civ V release is going to take focus away from Civ IV mods. Personally, I've quite enjoyed my first few games. It is a completely different game from Civ IV which is a good thing in my opinion. I'm glad they took some risks with it because I think they've made a much more fun and interesting game because of it. I particular enjoy the new hexagonal tactical combat - reminds me of late night sessions of Fantasy General. Sure, there are bugs and balance issues and some of the leader traits are completely useless.

Mod-wise the fun will start for modders next week when the mod tools come out. There is some speculation that the fact that everything (including XML) has to be edited in the tools is too restrictive. On the face of it, it seems that in trying to make Civ V easy to mod they may have made it harder to mod for experienced modders.

It will take a fairly long time for Civ V modding to reach the level that Civ IV modding is at today. There is so much to be understood from the SDK/Lua code to how the graphics work.

Personally, I'm not sure I can be bothered to learn everything from scratch again for modding Civ V, but we'll see what happens. I do want to get Dune Wars into some kind of final state, so I'll be plugging away at Civ IV for a little while yet.

Bear in mind that the total conversion mods for Civ IV took a long time to develop. Kael worked on FFH2 with a team of others for 3 years and Dune Wars has taken around 18 months to get to the point it is now. Dune Wars was made quicker because a lot of the knowledge on how to mod everything was freely available. In Civ V the pioneering figuring-out work hasn't even start yet. For the next six months or so Civ V is likely to more fun for the mod-makers than the mod-players. If someone can do a total conversion mod in a week then I'll stand corrected...

I think it's too soon to tell. We know that all sdk and python changes will need to be thrown away and redone from scratch. But, because of the general gameplay changes, the exact design of the mods "may or may not" need to be thrown away. Probably a lot needs to be thrown away and redesigned.

Apparently the Civ V SDK was developed from the Civ IV SDK so there is probably some sections of code still common to the two. However, the games are so different that I think very few mod concepts will translate without a major rework. If I was planning a Civ V mod (which I'm not at the moment) I'd be playing it and thinking "what kind of scenario would this game engine suit?" rather than forcing a pre-conceived idea onto it.

I am curious about art. It wasn't clear to me if art from civ 4, units and their animations, and buildings, would be usable in civ 5. I'm afraid to wander into the civ 5 threads because of high volume, so the answer is probably already known.

It looks like porting Civ IV units will require pretty advanced knowledge of 3D graphics i.e. Blender. See Ekmek's posts in this thread. So NIF files have to be converted via an intermediate FBX format. I have no idea what this would mean for animations.
 
I'm enjoying Civ5, agree that its a very different game.

I have a ton of mod ideas floating around, but I definitely see that its going to take a loooong time before people are at the stage of doing total conversion mods.

Many of the core mechanics are very non-transparent, let alone the actual behind the scenes engine code.

Even though I'll never be able to do real coding, even doing any sensible design work requires some understanding of what is and isn't possible, what various parameters do, how mechanics work. Its going to take ages before people can make an equivalent of the Civ4 modding wiki.

So Civ4 mods like Dune wars will I suspect continue to have a following for quite some time. And Civ5 is different enough that there will be many people who won't like it, and will continue to stick with Civ4. There are those who still prefer Civ3 to Civ4 after all, though I don't understand *that* at all.
 
Thanks for the feedback. I agree that the leader's traits suck. I felt it was a real step backward. Plus, the game is not as intuitive as Civ IV. Even with the rules I'm sort of confused how to win a cultural victory.

I guess the first mods will just be basic ones adding a bit more flavor and leader traits. I was irritated that for some reason they dropped the clock option as something you can have. Just what Civ players need, no way to tell how long they are playing

I agree that with mods taking a long time to come out, I'll be playing Civ IV for a long time. Hell, if I could get a copy of Win-XP to fix my laptop, I'd still be playing Alpha Centauri and Star Wars Rebellion, both late '90's games.
 
I agree that the leader's traits suck. I felt it was a real step backward.
Woah... I massively disagree here. I love the leader UA's. They're great. They actually make each civ different, and make them function best with a different playstyle. There are a few civs that still feel weak (America, I'm looking at you) but most of the civs have either fantastic UA or fantastic UUs.
I'll play India very differently from Greece, or Germany, or England.
And the civs seem balanced at a civ level, so those with stronger abilities (India) have weaker UU/UBs, and those with weaker abilities (Ottomans) have stronger UUs.

Plus, the game is not as intuitive as Civ IV.
Eh. I think this is mostly because you've been playing Civ4 for years, and Civ4 did not really tinker with the core mechanics much. Remember how unintuitive corporations were when you first met them.

Even with the rules I'm sort of confused how to win a cultural victory.
Complete 5 trees of social policies, build the utopia project.
The most important thing to remember is that each city you add increases all social policies by 30%, though puppets don't, so you need to keep a small central core to stop costs spiralling out of control. Each successive SP costs more than the previous one, so things that give you "free" SPs like Free Religion, the Oracle and Sydney Opera House are hugely valuable.

I was irritated that for some reason they dropped the clock option as something you can have.
Shift-tab brings up Steam, which has a clock.

What I'm mostly looking for in early Civ5 mods are:
a) A few gameplay tweaks, most noteably increasing tech costs, so that the game doesn't go by in a blur.
b) Stop puppets from building military buildings (barracks, arsenal, etc.) that they can't use.
c) More stuff; more detailed tech tree, more unit variation, more "passive" abilities from techs.
d) Some slight resource rebalancing. Rivers are too important, plains are too much better than grasslands, bonus resources are too weak, horses are too common, etc.
e) Increased transparency on diplomacy and unit maintenance.
 
Bear in mind that the total conversion mods for Civ IV took a long time to develop. Kael worked on FFH2 with a team of others for 3 years and Dune Wars has taken around 18 months to get to the point it is now. Dune Wars was made quicker because a lot of the knowledge on how to mod everything was freely available. In Civ V the pioneering figuring-out work hasn't even start yet. For the next six months or so Civ V is likely to more fun for the mod-makers than the mod-players. If someone can do a total conversion mod in a week then I'll stand corrected...

thats a good analysis deliverator,

i believe civ v have a long way to go, i remember that when i started civ 4 modding there was barley patch 1.6, it took a long time to build mods to a point of real good balanced enjoyment.

i worked on my overlord2 mod for 3 years, non stop, got over 40 versions out.
dune wars do have a fast evolution, just like you said, cause we had a lot to work with.

so i think civ4 is a great awesome game - but only with mods, so civ5 needs mods even more from what i saw.

cheers.
 
Yeah, Civ5 is going to need a lot of AI mod work. The core AI is... not good.

I'm tempted to start with a series of simple scenario mods. Basically make a map of a particular region, and have a simple war scenario with minimal new content, and a basically frozen tech tree that only takes 100 turns or so, and only a couple of players.
And maybe take it so that its designed to be played from a single perspective, and balance it heavily against the human player.

I'm thinking:
Crusades (crusader states surrounded by Arab armies).
100 years war (England with longbows, long swords, few mounted knights, vs France with much larger armies).
Alexander's conquests.
D-day and following western Europe.

I'm thinking it could be a lot of fun to have to play tactically against an enemy AI with a much superior army.

Long term, I'd like to work on Rome or Cold War mods with a lot of extra content/mechanics.
Or maybe a Total Conversion project if anyone has some interesting ideas.
 
Hey all - Keld know - i been writing scenario for new mod for few months and i going to start it soon.
If someone interested watch for threads there.. i will be glad to work with anyone from Dune crew.

It have totally original world set, not so scifi and not fantasy - something of both.... if you remember planetscape torment thats the feeling... world that i trying to build it on paper for now

I am working with concept art now on my own, and this is not a topic to discuss it, but if you just interested - ask me via pm and keep being in touch...
All i know is 2d/concept/testing/xml and i will be really glad to work with you - there alot of things to change and discuss, nothing is adamant except that i intend to make it my numero uno contribution mod
 
Hi!
It's a nice mod , thanks!

My observation: sandworms attack fremen units when they are riding sandworms in the desert.
Is it on purpose? (Haven't read about sandworms attacking each other in the books...Also the sandworms the fremen are riding are way weaker than the wild ones)
 
Bug 1 : buzzard thopter can't pillage
Intended.
Its too powerful if it can pillage, in particular its too easy for the human player to move from desert to land, pillage, then move away again (it has 3 moves in v1.9). And the AI isn't very good at protecting its harvesters in the early game, so its too easy to choke them with a mobile desert pillager.

Bug 2 : sardaukar noukker can't be constructed
The Noukker can be constructed, but only by the Corrino player. This is intended. Its effectively a Corrino UU. It requires the Sardaukar cooperation resource, however, which you get as a Corrino player from building a Landing Stage.

My observation: sandworms attack fremen units when they are riding sandworms in the desert.
Known. We've considered changing this by making the sandrider promotion grant stack immunity to sandworms.

Also the sandworms the fremen are riding are way weaker than the wild ones)
Intended, for balance.
 
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