Version 1.8 Feedback

We should add to our installation page a note that multiplayer probably does not work. There are two components which are very tightly woven together into DW, and it would be very difficult to remove them. BUG/BULL is one of them, and Revolutions DCM is the other. I am sure it would be ultimately "possible" to remove them. But, it is very hard.

I was not aware that BULL caused multiplayer problems. Several people have told us that Rev DCM is not compatible with multiplayer. The Rev DCM team has worked on this at different times, but I do not think it is solved. Perhaps the BULL team is working on multiplayer problems.

I will "claim" that the DW code itself should be fine for multiplayer. That is, if Rev DCM and BULL both worked correctly, then DW would not require any additional changes to work correctly. Fortunately for us, there is no way to prove this claim, until after both teams finish.
 
I'm actually trying to make a new version of Dune Wars based on Better BUG AI. This would not include the RevDCM component, but would still include BUG/BULL. I've made reasonable progress, but I still have a way to go. It is slightly questionable whether it is worth it as the only really noticeable changes to the player would be the new BUG/BULL features and (possibly) the later version of Better AI. RevDCM is pretty hard to notice in DW 1.8 already.
 
Hello all,
first of all let me thank you for this wonderful mod. Great music, great graphics, great gameplay! I have played many mods for Civ 4 and I really think this is one of the best.
I would like to point out a couple of minor issues I am having, perhaps you'll find this feedback useful:
  1. In the early game I often have cities that have nothing to build. I really miss an "idle build" like "convert hammers to money". darkedone02 reported the same issue 3 posts above.
  2. Playing as Fremen, my scouts in auto-explore mode are constantly getting killed by sandworms. This doesn't happen to other factions' flying scouts. This seems to me a great disadvantage for Fremen, unless one wants to micro-manage scouts (boring).
  3. Workers and spice. I find the spice gameplay great but perhaps it involves too much micromanagement. I don't like auto-improve because I want to fine-tune cities' improvements by myself. Would it be possible to include a command for workes to auto-improve just spice tiles and nothing else?
Thank you again for your work! :)
 
Hi Teodosio

1. I have never found this to be the case personally, playing at Epic speed and on higher game difficulties. If nothing else, build more workers and settlers, the mod tends to favor rapid exapnsion. Or perhaps we could increase early game building costs slightly. Water cache is such a no-brainer.
Having said that, I have no particular objection to allowing a weak idle build in the early game.
2. Scouts already have advantages in that they can move 4 tiles across sand (desert tiles take 0.5 movement points). I think that's sufficient. And scout thopters can still sometimes get eaten by worms.
3. If you adopt the Arrakis Spice civic, then you can build Spice Workers, who are high-movement high-build speed workers who build nothing but harvesters. Automating them will build harvesters only.
 
[*]Playing as Fremen, my scouts in auto-explore mode are constantly getting killed by sandworms. This doesn't happen to other factions' flying scouts. This seems to me a great disadvantage for Fremen, unless one wants to micro-manage scouts (boring).

There is a promotion, Thumper, which prevents a unit from being harmed by sandworms. If your scouts get experience, it may be worthwhile to take this. (I have not checked that it is available to scouts, but it should be.)

Also, there is the opportunity for an AI tweak. Sandworms cannot go on land, so it would make sense for scouts to spend some effort to end their turn on land. You can see that vanilla scouts prefer to end their turn in hills or forest, so this would be something similar. Right now the AI does not realize all-terrain units are safer on land.
 
Thanks for the feedback, Teodosio.

1.In the early game I often have cities that have nothing to build. I really miss an "idle build" like "convert hammers to money". darkedone02 reported the same issue 3 posts above.

Is this a problem in vanilla as well? I'd like to understand why this is a particular issue for Dune Wars.

Given that many people have said that the game goes too quick on Normal and Ahriman frequently says the mod is better suited to Epic I wonder whether we should address that problem which could be contributing to the "nothing to build" issue.

If cities are still growing too quickly in the early game then there are at least a couple of options. We still have the option of slowing down city growth/settler build time using whatever that global parameter is called. I know we have favoured spreading water along the tech tree to keep it feeling scarce, but I still think there is room to slow things down with the global setting. Also, we could revert new cities to only getting 2 water instead of 3.

2. Playing as Fremen, my scouts in auto-explore mode are constantly getting killed by sandworms. This doesn't happen to other factions' flying scouts. This seems to me a great disadvantage for Fremen, unless one wants to micro-manage scouts (boring).

I guess we could added to the AI code so that scouts are cleverer in avoiding sandworms as David suggests. Not sure this is high priority though.

3. Workers and spice. I find the spice gameplay great but perhaps it involves too much micromanagement. I don't like auto-improve because I want to fine-tune cities' improvements by myself. Would it be possible to include a command for workes to auto-improve just spice tiles and nothing else?

Again, I presume it is possible to make a new automation mode that focuses only on building harvesters on desert, but whether we can figure out how to do it is another question...
 
Again, I presume it is possible to make a new automation mode that focuses only on building harvesters on desert, but whether we can figure out how to do it is another question...

Another possibility may be to introduce a "slow spice worker" at a lower tech level, which is not limited to Spice Industry. This one would be a copy of the "fast spice worker" but with only two moves. Since the spice worker can only build harvesters, its automation automatically does what is requested.
 
Many thanks to every answerer. :)
Is this a problem in vanilla as well? I'd like to understand why this is a particular issue for Dune Wars.
I can say I have never "felt" this problem in vanilla. In every game there is always something useful that my cities can build in early game. On the contrary, in every game I play in Dune Wars I found myself with some cities with nothing to build (in early game). I cannot explain why using figures but that's what I experienced. BTW, I play on prince or monarch difficulty.
I guess we could added to the AI code so that scouts are cleverer in avoiding sandworms as David suggests. Not sure this is high priority though.
I think that would be great! My poor fremen scouts rarely survive more than 5 turns :(
Another possibility may be to introduce a "slow spice worker" at a lower tech level, which is not limited to Spice Industry. This one would be a copy of the "fast spice worker" but with only two moves. Since the spice worker can only build harvesters, its automation automatically does what is requested.
Good idea, it seems a easy fix that would certainly solve the problem.
Thanks again for your replies and for your great mod! :goodjob:
 
that the game goes too quick on Normal
I play exclusively on normal speed and this has not been a problem in any of the 30+ games I have played.
If cities are still growing too quickly
No they are not. If anything, cities grow a tad bit slow early on but IMO this is okay. Choosing tech research carefully resolves this *problem* and prevents not having anything to build in your cities as well.
we could revert new cities to only getting 2 water instead of 3
IMO, bad idea.
 
Is this a problem in vanilla as well? I'd like to understand why this is a particular issue for Dune Wars.

Well, yields are slightly higher than in vanilla, and terrain produces more hammers. Hammers are more rare in vanilla, because grasslands and floodplains don't produce them and hills with mines are rare, whereas every tile here gives at least 1 hammer.
I don't think this is a problem though.

Ahriman frequently says the mod is better suited to Epic I wonder whether we should address that problem which could be contributing to the "nothing to build" issue.

The better suited to epic is mostly an issue of unit movement speed, not of building speed.

When you change game speeds, everything important changes except movement speed. Dune Wars has cities that are highly spaced out, and doesn't have roads and railways that quickly move units around, so I find that Epic does a better job of having unit movement times be not too long as opposed to everything else.

Another possibility may be to introduce a "slow spice worker" at a lower tech level, which is not limited to Spice Industry. This one would be a copy of the "fast spice worker" but with only two moves. Since the spice worker can only build harvesters, its automation automatically does what is requested.
This would make Arrakis paradise civic less interesting.

My poor fremen scouts rarely survive more than 5 turns
I suggest MMing them, its not that hard to have them avoid worms.

I think early growth rates are actually pretty good now.
 
I can say I have never "felt" this problem in vanilla. In every game there is always something useful that my cities can build in early game. On the contrary, in every game I play in Dune Wars I found myself with some cities with nothing to build (in early game). I cannot explain why using figures but that's what I experienced. BTW, I play on prince or monarch difficulty.

I've never actually had the issue exactly as described here (where cities seem to run out of stuff to build), but I have noticed as well that things build faster in Dune wars than, say, Planetfall or Fall from Heaven (I haven't played the regular game much at all, so can't really compare effectively there.)

Personally, it's not something I'd change (For me, the faster speed of the mod is quite fun), but I would say that the issue being described does seem plausible depending on play style.

Another possibility may be to introduce a "slow spice worker" at a lower tech level, which is not limited to Spice Industry. This one would be a copy of the "fast spice worker" but with only two moves. Since the spice worker can only build harvesters, its automation automatically does what is requested.
This would make Arrakis paradise civic less interesting.

The issue being described seems more of a "gameplay convenience" issue than an issue with the gameplay statistics, since it is possible to micromanage workers to build spice, but does add a bunch of extra stuff to keep track of (like all micromanagement). Personally, I'm neutral on this idea, and could see it going both ways (Provided that slow spice workers build harvesters and move exactly as fast as regular workers, it seems numerically balanced, though might still have its own issues.)

2. Playing as Fremen, my scouts in auto-explore mode are constantly getting killed by sandworms. This doesn't happen to other factions' flying scouts. This seems to me a great disadvantage for Fremen, unless one wants to micro-manage scouts (boring).
I guess we could added to the AI code so that scouts are cleverer in avoiding sandworms as David suggests. Not sure this is high priority though.

On my couple games as fremen, I have noticed that scouts seem to prefer to move through desert (possibly thanks to the faster movement), than to move over land, which may be contributing to the tendency to get eaten by worms. (I don't remember paying enough attention to the amount of times they were eaten by worms vs. thopters, but it certainly seems possible.)
 
when I'm in the game, the program will crash if I user ALT+TAB to swich to desktop , my OS is win7 32bit

How do I solve the problem?..

By the way ,I have uninstalled previous version 1.62 ,and install 1.8 ,and i don't have this issue in 1.62
 
Provided that slow spice workers build harvesters and move exactly as fast as regular workers

In this case its harmless, except that we'd be confusing regular players by creating a deliberately inferior unit (same as regular worker except can only build harvesters).

What happens if you automate a worker to just improve trade network? Doesn't this make it build roads (which don't exist here) and bonus resource improvements (which will mostly be harvesters)?
 
What happens if you automate a worker to just improve trade network? Doesn't this make it build roads (which don't exist here) and bonus resource improvements (which will mostly be harvesters)?

I think CIV4AutomateInfos.xml might be worth a look.
 
when I'm in the game, the program will crash if I user ALT+TAB to swich to desktop , my OS is win7 32bit

How do I solve the problem?..

By the way ,I have uninstalled previous version 1.62 ,and install 1.8 ,and i don't have this issue in 1.62

I've not heard of this issue before, so I don't know what the problem would be. You could try running the mod in Windowed mode rather than Full Screen and see if that helps.
 
I have posted a new version of the mod built on Better BUG AI. See this thread for details.
 
Btw: something which would be really cool to get implemented when someone has the time to do the necessary sdk work, the original design for the Mahdi religion was to have the shrine produce +X% military production per city with the mahdi religion, not +1 gold.

X should probably be ~7.
 
Firstly, I agree with others who say this is one of the best mods I've seen. However, I say that despite the fact that several flaws became apparent in a day's play. So here are some requests for attention for refinements:

1. I can confirm that multi-player is broken. I was so enthusiastic when I saw the mod that I called up a good friend of mine who I knew loved Dune. We played most of the day, but utlimately were frustrated because every time there was any combat we got the OOS error. I came here looking for the fix, in fact, since the problem was so repeatable.

2. I can also confirm that rapid expansion is highly favored--playing on Emperor level after one trial run I got run-away scores, 2x second place. Conversely, the time I got stuck on a small rock w/ a civ that didn't start w/ a thopter I had a rough time. Value of expansion should be toned down to help game depth, help the AIs, and defuse the luck factor with starting geography. Increasing costs of workers/settlers would help a bit, but consider other tools, as well. Increasing barbarian activity would be a good tool, and consistent with the Dune ambiance, I think. I'd also recommend ramping up maintenance costs for number of cities, if there's a way to do that.

3. Perhaps related to the above, I've found the various water-gaining techs are too early in the tech tree. It didn't take me too long to figure out a pretty highly optimized research schedule that got me generating 3 water on hills, ground water, and the various water plants before the barbs were coming or the AIs even had their feet under them. The way the water techs are laid out, the only thing I was giving up was the religion line and the 25% boost to hammers for a factory--neither of which comes close to the value of getting water production for a tile above the cost to feed the person working it. For game depth and balance both that should be toned down. I don't know if it's possible to give fractional resource bonuses, but I think it would be better if you capped out at 2.5 water per tile with the first four tech levels or so. I think the jump between 2.5 and 3 would be a good thing to have competing around the point where people are considering bee-lining to Off-world Trade.

4. To the extent it matters as you're tweaking, I vote against optimizing for Epic time scale. I gather there are a number of grognards on this site from the "real men only play the campaign game" club (and in most contexts so am I) but after long experience I've concluded that all epic does is make a 12 hour game take 36 hours to play. In terms of game balance it's only effect is to make units move around faster. In any event, I find it boring, and it makes multi-player infeasible.
 
QBeamus,
Thanks very much for the carefully considered feedback (and welcome to the forums!).

1. Multiplayer bugged is a known issue, largely to due some of the modcomps that Dune Wars uses. Deliverator and Keldath are looking at trying to extract the parts of these we want and rebuild the mod with just this code, but its a very tricky business.

2. Yes, rapid expansion is favored, particularly compared to vanilla.
I don't see this as such a design problem.
The AI does rapid expansion, and does it fairly well now that we've rewritten the AI's city settlement algorithm.
And the game is pretty boring until the empty space is taken up and civs are butting up against each other.
So I don't think its such a problem to breeze through the early settlement phase - this part of the game is pretty boring.

3. The water-boosting techs are fairly early compared to vanilla, though they're much later than they used to be and early game tile yields are way down from what they were.
Yes the human player can go for these early, though the boosts for the different improvements are on somewhat different tech lines.
The AI player also goes for them fairly early, so I'm not sure the AI gets hurt too badly by this.

I'm kinda against rewriting the tech tree again. If we wanted to change things, then the candidates for change are:
a) Increase the costs of yield-increasing techs and/or
b) Change AI tech flavor values to encourage them to research these techs

I think the biggest weakness of the AI in the early game is its tendency to use slavery rather than serfdom, and so it whips away its population (which hurts its long-run growth) and doesn't build improvements (and harvesters) fast enough. We're looking at making slavery Harkonnen only, and then boosting the yields from slavery (they're not big enough now to justify sacrificing the population).

4. I do think that the mod works best at Epic.
This isn't anything to do with a grognard feel or a preference for long games, its simply related to the movement speeds vs tech speeds.
On a standard or large map, civs are a LONG way apart, and it takes many turns to get to even a neighbor, let alone a non-neighbor, even using suspensors or thopters.
The lack of roads and railroads means that it takes a long time to get around and to attack enemies. On normal speed, you can set off with a stack of bladesmen only to find that your enemy has research maula guardsmen by the time your bladesmen get to their cities and thus your attack is stymied. You can send off an invasion force or a relief force for an ally only to find that the war is over by the time you get there.
Hence, I favor epic speed over normal, because this increases movement speed relative to tech speed and construction speed.

An alternative to this would be to increase movement speeds across the board, but this has other problems. It would tend to:
a) Reduce the value of vehicle as fast mobile support, because even infantry could move quickly.
b) Allow for all kinds of early game move-pillage-move (start in desert, move onto land, pillage, return to desert where the AI can't attack you with land units) exploits by the human player (that the AI doesn't understand) with thopters, suspensors and Fremen sandriders.
We could remove pillage ability from these units I guess - or at least the tier1 versions of them.
Or maybe we could somehow force pillaging to take up all a units remaining movement?
Then we could significantly increase thopter and suspensor movement without having these kinds of exploits happen.
c) Reduce the ability to see attacks coming and plan for them; AI stacks will tend to appear about out of the fog and attack your units without you getting a chance to respond.
This used to happen with the barbarian units on highways in David's Fury Road mod, and it wasn't very popular.

Another alternative would be to add the homeland promotion to suspensors and thopters, and in the culture of anyoen with whom you have open borders.

But I'm not wild about any of these.
 
Back
Top Bottom