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Version 2.7 discussion

Discussion in 'Civ4 - Rise of Mankind' started by zappara, Mar 20, 2009.

  1. strategyonly

    strategyonly C2C Supreme Commander

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    I got to Steam Power for making a Calvary, but then i looked back and saw that Mounted Archery/Heraldry/Chivalry have not been researched yet?? Dont know if anyone asked this before, too many threads to look at.
     
  2. Bezhukov

    Bezhukov Deity

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    Anyone know what causes "We long for the open country" unhappiness?
     
  3. CMKMStephens

    CMKMStephens Serious.

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    Probably those damn impresionists and their landscape paintings.
     
  4. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    The Patrician civic, I believe.
     
  5. konradcabral

    konradcabral Prince

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    I just finished a game with the 2.7 test1 version. It took 3 weeks, and was the best Civ game I ever played, without doubt nor exaggeration. Without a single CTD or compromising bug.
    I played as Ramesses II and the game was very difficult and disputed until the modern era, when I managed to build an overwhelming economy and research. This made me win easily the Incas, who were militarly much stronger (0.5) than me until Industrial Era. Because I got to build all the Super Wonders easily without competition, I finished the game with a score of 9000 and 10 vassals, and the second one, Menelik (Huayna Capac died...) with 2500. So, I have some feedback in order to try to balance the late eras. Before that, some minor comments:
    1) Twice I built an SS part in my supercities, and it got bugly destroyed by espionage in minor cities, far far away. But eventually I arrived in Alpha Centauri.
    2) The resource providing buildings, like Steel Mill and Rubber Factory, harm the AI too much. They are the choice even if the empire has 10 or 15 of that resource, and I could prove that when I automated my city production in the last turns. For this, I can see 2 possible solutions:
    - Create a limit per Civ: 5 or 7, providing 5 or 7 resources, same style of Hollywood and Broadway.
    - Or create a new category of "wonder". The same way the cities have a limit for GWs and NWs, they could also have a limit for "Resource Buildings". If this limit was 3, for instance, a city which already produces steel, glass and vulc rubber, couldn't produce synthetic rubber or ammunition. This fits the intention of creating more of these buildings.
    3) The time between two news could be tuned down? I love that sound of declaring war, but I timed the space between 2 of them and it is 5-6 seconds, when most of the sound has 2-3 seconds. Sometimes, I have to hear the news for 2-3 minutes, and if I press Enter, I lose an important warning. Imagine the war with 2 empires which have 5 vassals each!
    4) And the most important of all, I have suggestions for tuning buildings, NWs, GWs and Projects. I don't expect that all be implemented. Of course I expect disagreements and discussions, the more the better. I tried to respect a principle that says that the former and simpler improvements are the ones which have greater impact. It is in the attached file, and I mentioned only the ones and its features which are unbalancing, in my opinion.

    Thx Zap for the great hours that RoM gave me. :king:
     

    Attached Files:

  6. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    @konradcabral

    I have just looked at you suggested bonus changes. You will be pleased to know that I dissagree with some of them ;). Here is a quick response for those I feel strongly about.

    Supermarket - yes for fisherman's hut and butchery, no for bakery, should also do bazaar especially if incense would give a +1 health on bazaar.
    Academy - no unless you also obsolete buildings built by other Great Peoples Perhaps two boni of 25% one of which goes obsolete the other dosen't.

    Moai Statues - No way I use it to make a marginal city productive. Unless there is added a building like the Civ3 offshore platform which gives hammers from sea.

    The suggested changes to The Eiffel Tower, Taj Mahal and Three Gorges Dam would make them useless and not worth building. By that time in the game my happiness per city is double the unhappiness so I don't need any more :) and my top ten cities are usually on rivers so they can build hydro plants much cheaper.

    There was a discussion somewhere on the replacing the boni for Internet and Encyclopedia which looked good but I can't find it.
     
  7. CivEikka

    CivEikka Warlord

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    Pretty nice changes, however the internet grants all techs known by 2 civs? I think the three would be better, for the balance.

    And what about the +1 health for everyone, +3 in your cities. How about the +1 health with pleased and up, becouse it would be more realistic, (Think about if North Korea would have the cure for the cancer, no way they could give it to everyone)

    Maybe some civics should play a bigger part in those wonders (instead of +1 or -1 happiness) Like if you are running slavery, and get statue of liberty, you wouldn't get any bonuses, (+1 angry citizen maybe.)) And if you get the pentagon wonder, and are in liberty you could get none of bonuses, but if you are in fasicism (or patriotic) you would get some extra bonuses. (Like a free general or +20% for building troops) Some civics that are neutral to some wonders (say president/parlament etc) they would get regular bonuses.
     
  8. Ioannes

    Ioannes Chieftain

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    I think that the animation graphics for the Elephant Rider and War Elephant may be switched.

    Also because of the spearman value of 4 and the +100% vs mounted Elephant Riders are nerfed and useless. I suggest changing their value to 6 to make them marginally useful with the given spearman values. I like the spearman vaue because it makes it the primary offensive weapon until axemen.

    I would also like to propose a -50% attack vs cities for horse archers and +1 movement. Their power historically is their manueverability which is greatly reduced in an old world city. The sight of a horsearcher seige just bothers me.

    Is it possible to set the build priority for archers and catepults higher for the AI? They don't build nearly enough of them in my opinion.

    BTW I'm playing on a E8400 4G RAM 8800GT with 32 bit Vista playing on a Gigantic Terra map on Emperor with few crashes.
     
  9. Agentus

    Agentus Chieftain

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    All unhappiness generating Civics.
     
  10. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    Been playing 2.7test1 since zappara released it with No RevDcm options turned on. No CTD's.

    Started 2 2.7test1 games with only BarbCiv option on, also no vassals. Also wanted to start in a middle era so I picked Medival. Gigantic world, Lakes, sea level high, 9AI, all victory conditions on, Epic level; had 1 CTD in the 1st game. None in the second.

    But what I'm really posting about is the number of Units a Barb city gets when it turns into a Minor Civ. I've counted as high as 8 top of the available era units. And they get Horses or Elephants even if they don't have that resource available! Just cause the Minor Civ is Siam shouldn't mean they get 3 Battle Elephants, 3 Macemen, and 2 Crossbow, when the barb city before it reached Minor status only had a Longbow! And of course the Barbs are running rampant with that much open space. So expect wave after wave of Minor Civ Stacks to come knocking. Actually it's an onslaught!

    On a medival Era start, you as the player get 2 archers, 2 settlers, 1 scout and 1 worker. The Barbs are already throwing Horsemen, Swordsmen, Archers, and Spearmen at you at the very beginning. Even only on Noble level you are fighting for your very existance by the time you meet your 1st major AI scout.

    I'm up to turn 1760+AD in one of these Medieval starts and I've just finished researching Bank. And even though I lead research, I'm Waaaay behind from where I should be.

    One other thing that I've noted, the AI Capital Cities all have a ridiculous amount of resources located within their fat X. Capac has 7 resources alone in his. I thought I had a good start with 3!

    Because of all the "extras" the Barbs and AI receive I even had to restart the 1st test1 game, as my 2 Archers were quickly overwhelmed in my capital city. Ouch!

    Makes me want to pull my hair, but it's also extremely FUN!

    So after all this rambling Is it a design feature of Barb Civ for the Barbs to get so many starting units? Isn't 7, 8, or more a bit much?

    JosEPh :)
     
  11. konradcabral

    konradcabral Prince

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    Didn't understand your thought about bakery and bazaar. In a modern supermarket, they sell fish, meat, bread and pies, that's why I proposed this way.

    It would be an excellent alternative, just don't know if it's doable.

    Yes, I also use it the exact same way. But my question is: is it verossimile? Why some statues affect the production of an island? Maybe we have to look a substitute for it, what?

    About Taj mahal, yes, I thought about giving some boni related to a mausoleum, which it's its original purpose. About Eiffel Tower and T.G.Dam, it have been 2 years that I don't build a single broadcast tower or power plant. I'd just like to build it...


    Same again, excellent alternative, don't know it's modable.

    This would require a more deep study, which I can't provide, I have only small time left to Civ... But I agree it would be nice.
     
  12. Afforess

    Afforess The White Wizard

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    I was just thinking about ROM, and I realized that it lacks in wonders for great artists. I believe the taj mahal is one, but I can't really name in others. Maybe some new wonders for the artists should be included.
     
  13. konradcabral

    konradcabral Prince

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    Is these subjects still on the radar?

    David, by Michelangelo;
    The Sistine Chapel;
    The Brunelleschi Dome, in Florence, which is portraited in the initializing screen of Civ IV, with Architecture (don't know if it's science or art :lol:);
    Fontana di Trevi;
    Rock'n Roll;
    J.S. Bach's Cathedral;
    Sun Tzu's Art of War;
    Moai Statues!!!
     
  14. JosEPh_II

    JosEPh_II TBS WarLord

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    2.7test1 with only BarbCiv add-on/option will CTD repeatedly once you reach late 1700's AD.

    There is still a definite problem in the BarbCiv part of REVDCM.

    Attached python error log : View attachment 215488

    JosEPh
     
  15. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    It was just thatthe others are ancient buildings while the baker is renassiance. Thinking on it I am not sure that the proposed supermarket upgrade is the way to go. Currently there is no maintenance on buildings so the idea of upgrading lacks need - it makes no difference. That is if the upgrade has all the boni of the things it upgrades and its own. If not then building it may not be worth the effort because you will loose something. Having the buildings go obsolete with the tech may be the go instead.

    Why? Well someone found these cute graphics and then needed to find a reason to use them in Civ :).

    Well I still build hydro dams while waiting for the T.G. Dam to be built and latter to get rid of some of those annoying icons in the build lists :)

    @Zappara I had a game crash after building the World Bank and IMF - you don't need one for the other even though it says so - between ending my turn and the crash my income per turn was jumping all over the place 2000+, then 700+, then 1500+, then crash. Forgot to save the logs.

    However, playing a new game, I got a repeatable CTD. I have started playing with BarbCiv on and have had 5-6 non repeatable CTD before this one. Logs attached, maybe they will contain something useful, I could not see anything.
     
  16. vincentz

    vincentz Programmer

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    Sorry if its mentioned before or already put at work in 2.7test1 but how about putting the following into siege weapons :

    <FeatureDefenses>
    <FeatureDefense>
    <FeatureType>FEATURE_FOREST</FeatureType>
    <iFeatureDefense>-50</iFeatureDefense>
    </FeatureDefense>
    <FeatureDefense>
    <FeatureType>FEATURE_JUNGLE</FeatureType>
    <iFeatureDefense>-75</iFeatureDefense>
    </FeatureDefense>
    </FeatureDefenses>

    Defending a catapult/trebuchet/cannon etc in a forrest is, if not impossible, then very difficult
    (Wow, man we were lucky there, hitting that tree so it fell on those troops comming out of the wilderness). Maybe even put a :

    <TerrainDefenses>
    <TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_GRASS</TerrainType>
    <iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
    </TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_PLAINS</TerrainType>
    <iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
    </TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_SNOW</TerrainType>
    <iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
    </TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_TUNDRA</TerrainType>
    <iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
    </TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_MARSH</TerrainType>
    <iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
    </TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainDefense>
    <TerrainType>TERRAIN_DESERT</TerrainType>
    <iTerrainDefense>-25</iTerrainDefense>
    </TerrainDefense>

    symbolising that siege weapons are for sieges, not defences. Except on hills where siegeweapons of any form (well, maybe not any form :"Hey guys! Roll down that battering ram and lets give hell to the enemy") can be very helpfull. I'm currently playing a game where my neighbourgh put 10 catapults, a spearman and a trained dog onto my land, and not even 15 axemen (which is the strongest I have presently) with +20% strenght could do any harm. (Maybe I'm just born unlucky, but when the odds say 50-50 I usually loose 9 to 1)
    I even lost a 99,2% in a game once, where my promotion overdosed maceman warlord standing on a forrest in a stack of 10 lost to a single trained dog!

    (Maybe my army had a party the night before celebrating the soon to come victory and then the enemy sneaked in a rabies infected werewolf disguised as a beautifull woman into the encampment) (Talking about a new event ;-)
     
  17. os79

    os79 Deity

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    I had to laugh hard at the picture of trained dog beating up a OD Maceman!
    Good one!
     
  18. zappara

    zappara Mod Designer

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    Lots of posts to read once again on these forums... and all good infor for me to use how to further improve RoM, so thanks again guys/girls! :)

    @konradcabral

    7. yes, though still undecided how to change it. Will look into it again when test2 is ready.

    8. Because RoM 2.7 will have WoC's modular system included, I can leave religion changes for addon makers at this time. But I probably will revisit religions bit later.

    9. all nifs in the mod have been checked, only few models have 3000-6000 polygons but they are usually used as a single unit graphic (for example all human units will get 3x 1500 polygons just because they use formations of 3 models) and there wasn't any models with 20 000+ polygons so all is good.

    I'll take a look at your building changes ;)

    @Joseph_II

    Revolution/Barbarian civ adds units via python code and it's coded by jdog5000. I haven't touched yet his code about how many units should be spawned during rebellions but I might tweak it a bit if I can.

    There wasn't anything odd in your python log file. I think the CTD problem is more related to the DLL file... I'll be merging RevDCM 2.1 later this week to RoM 2.7test2 version (if glider releases it soon). It will have better BtS AI 0.75 as well.

    @Dancing Hoskuld

    Based on your logs, it seems that there's something wrong with maininterface python - and I suspect it's in code section which is part of BUG mod...

    World Bank and IMF have been fixed.
     
  19. Dancing Hoskuld

    Dancing Hoskuld Deity

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    Does this mean that you will be moving all your standard religion buildings into a standard RoM module? WoC does not quite work for modmods as can be seen by AAranda's religion mod needing to change RoM files.
     
  20. climat

    climat King

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    1) I think incense in desert is ridiculous. As far as I know, incense comes from plants.
    and desert tile makes incense lame.

    2) Why rice with farm provides +1 food while corn and wheat provides +2?
    (and even potato provides +3)

    3) Shouldn't we get plantation more earlier, or at least get lemon more earlier?

    4) Pearl provides +1 food, +2 commerce (Am I right? I cannot remeber exactly.)
    Do we get food from pearl? I don't think so.
    I think new improvement for pearl is needed.
    (Because fishing boat gets +1 food with sonar technology)

    5) Why gem, gold, silver with mine makes -1 production?

    6) Mountain tiles should be usable.

    Of course, I know these things can be changed with xml very easily,
    (except new improvement for pearl and 6.)
    but I want to hear opinions..
    and want to see "official" changes for these :D

    and some more things..

    1) Aren't Abyssinian and Ethiopian overlapped? I didn't play ethiopian or abyssinian so I don't know but is it okay? (problems with city names..)

    2) Mansa Musa's Financial and Scientific combo is overpowered. Maybe making Financial or Scientific or both weaker will be needed or just going back to Spiritual.

    3) Wanggon is not that appropriate for Korea.. Because their UB, UU are the things of Chosun, the later dynasty (Wanggon's dynasty is prior to Chosun.)
    I think Sejong of Chosun is better. Just change name :lol:
     

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