Victim of perceived thug does end up in jail

[Bamspeedy]

That is an interesting interpretation of what the phases mean. But I think them both mean the latter. I even used the former to describe the statement of the latter in the article. Do you have any proof they don't?

It depends on the actual words.

"When police shoot someone, it is four times more likely to be a black person" would mean 80% of the people shot are black.

"A black person is four times more likely to be shot by police than a white person" would mean the probability of someone being shot...like I said 40% of the people shot if they are 10% of the population.

Do you really think if a medical person said for example "Blacks are 30% more likely to die from heart disease" that means that the number of blacks who have heart disease outnumber the number of whites who do despite whites far outnumbering the number of blacks? No, it means if whites have it happen an average of say 10 per 1000 white people then blacks would have it happen 13 per 1000 black people, or a rate 30% higher.

http://minorityhealth.hhs.gov/templates/content.aspx?ID=3018

The only study I can find on the BJS site that indicates anything like what the Tampa Bay article posted was "Policing and Homicide, 1976-98: Justifiable Homicide of Felons by Police and Murder of Police by Felons" and that supports my contention that it is "Four times more likely", not "Four times as often".

1976-Blacks 52%, whites 46%
1998-Blacks 35%, whites 62%

If we went a figured out the % of the population each race had in those years then maybe '8 times as likely' for the 70's and '4 times as likely' for more recently are accurate.

That would appear to count only felons, but I would appreciate if you could find a study that fits the criteria we want.

http://bjs.ojp.usdoj.gov/index.cfm?ty=pbdetail&iid=829


'Arrest related deaths' (which includes all shootings because they don't need to be technically arrrested for it to count) shows whites outnumbering blacks but doesn't go back to the 70's, includes deaths not by gunfire (white suicides outnumber black suicides by a 4-1 margin, but all other causes for death are pretty close to 50-50).

Your few examples of limited areas and specific crimes are irrelevent and anectdotal, except for possible proof of that specific area may have a bias or have a bias against blacks for certain crimes. I agree racism can play a part in some of the disparity if you will admit that there could be other reasons for some of the disparity (blacks are over represented among the poor so more likely to be a criminal........ of course I say this because they are poor not because of the their skin color.)

 

[Formaldehyde]

Do you really think if a medical person said for example "Blacks are 30% more likely to die from heart disease" that means that the number of blacks who have heart disease outnumber the number of whites who do despite whites far outnumbering the number of blacks? No, it means if whites have it happen an average of say 10 per 1000 white people then blacks would have it happen 13 per 1000 black people, or a rate 30% higher.

No, because it is clear from that context what is actually meant, just as I think it is clear from the context of this expert's comments what he meant. You even admitted as much.

Once again, do you have any actual proof at all that blacks aren't massively discriminated against by the legal system when there is massive evidence to the contrary, specifically in this regard?

The only study I can find on the BJS site that indicates anything like what the Tampa Bay article posted was "Policing and Homicide, 1976-98: Justifiable Homicide of Felons by Police and Murder of Police by Felons" and that supports my contention that it is "Four times more likely", not "Four times as often".

1976-Blacks 52%, whites 46%
1998-Blacks 35%, whites 62%

The clue to what those statistics actually mean are in the title of the report: "justifiable homicide of felons". What about all the homicides which were not "justifiable", the times there weren't felonies, the times they weren't criminals at all, or much less the number of times that they were merely shot and didn't die?

And you keep claiming it was a "Tampa Bay article". While it did appear in the Tampa Bay Times, it was a commentary written by an expert on these topics.

 

[Bamspeedy]

Michael Motto is a fellow of the Truman National Security Project .

Irrelevent.

and was a Gates Scholar at the University of Cambridge Institute of Criminology.

So he went to school, students never make a mistake?

He teaches and conducts research on policing and multiculturalism

Teaches where? And again, he could have made a mistake like you did in thinking the two phrases are the same when it's not.

I admitted the mistake when I thought I had the proof needed to prove me wrong. It would be nice if you did that once in a while. Find me the proof he is right besides his single sentence.

Once again, do you have any actual proof at all that blacks aren't discriminated against by the legal system when there is massive evidence to the contrary, specifically in this regard?

that isn't the question. The question was if the stats provided were correct. Or do you want a dishonest debate?

 

[Formaldehyde]

No, I want actual proof instead of comments such as these:

Your few examples of limited areas and specific crimes are irrelevent and anectdotal, except for possible proof of that specific area may have a bias or have a bias against blacks for certain crimes. I agree racism can play a part in some of the disparity if you will admit that there could be other reasons for some of the disparity (blacks are over represented among the poor so more likely to be a criminal........ of course I say this because they are poor not because of the their skin color.)

Emphasis mine.

Irrelevent.

So he went to school, students never make a mistake?

Teaches where? And again, he could have made a mistake like you did in thinking the two phrases are the same when it's not.

I admitted the mistake when I thought I had the proof needed to prove me wrong. It would be nice if you did that once in a while. Find me the proof he is right besides his single sentence.

Is this your notion of an "honest debate"?

I'll admit the comment could be interpreted either way. But I also think it is quite clear the US criminal justice system is hopelessly broken in regard to discriminating against blacks and other minorities. I think the evidence is overwhelming.

Is Austin TX really all that different than Onalaska, Wisconsin? It certainly isn't much different from this part of Florida where blacks are shot and even killed by the police far too frequently. Places where such statistics are rarely mentioned in the press because they don't want to make things even worse than they already are.

 

[Bamspeedy]

But I also think it is quite clear the US criminal justice system is hopelessly broken in regard to discriminating against blacks and other minorities.

Yes, there is racism. Is racism 100% of the reason for the disparity or a lesser % of the reason? How much of the disparity is because of socio-economic reasons (poor committing more crimes and if there is a bias against the poor so by then removing the bias against the poor and the disadvantages of the poor that would help minorities)

Is Austin TX really all that different than Onalaska, Wisconsin?

Austin, as a % of the population, has 16 times the number of blacks that Onalaska has, so more examples of bad stuff will happen to blacks in Austin than Onalaska. No blacks have been shot by police here because there is hardly any of them here.

Is it 'institutional' racism when non-police people react the same as police do?

http://www.eurekalert.org/pub_releases/2003-07/uow-bml070803.php

Given only a fraction of a second to respond to images of men popping out from behind a garbage dumpster, people were more likely to shoot blacks than whites, even when the men were holding a harmless object such as a flashlight rather than a gun.

Although the subjects in this study were college students, Greenwald said there is every reason to believe that police officers have the same prejudices or psychological perceptions about race as students. He bases that conclusion on data collected from hundreds of thousands of people who have taken versions of the Implicit Association Tests (IAT), including one that measures unconscious attitudes about people and weapons. The majority of people who have taken the tests exhibit some form of unconscious racial, ethnic, gender or age prejudice or stereotype. The IAT was created by Greenwald, and developed in collaboration with Mahazarin Banaji, a Harvard University psychology professor and Brian Nosek, a University of Virginia assistant professor of psychology.

 

[Formaldehyde]

Is it 'institutional' racism when non-police people react the same as police do?

Is an armed vigilante taking the law into his own hands, while racially profiling a completely innocent black teen, and engaging in the same form of institutional racism he is studying in college to emulate?

Here's an interesting blog that is starting to chronicle some of those who were walking, driving, or breathing while black when they were suddenly deprived of their right to live by those very sorts of individuals:

29 Black People Have Been Killed by Police/Security Since Jan 2012: 16 Since Trayvon

First thing that needs to be noted is that we just had another police shooting of an unarmed man in Austin, Texas on Thursday night.. This happened after the report was compiled, so add another name to this grisly toll..

Second, folks have got to understand this is not coincident, it’s quite deliberate. Police have moved from a point of trying to de-escalate or prevention to a shoot first ask questions later policy..

The list below are just noting the deaths at hands of the police, its not highlighting the enormous amounts of brutality and outright disrespect many in the Black community have to endure on a daily basis.. The report below is to say the least disturbing and underscores a low wage war going on in our communities…

Twenty-eight Black People (27 Men and 1 Female) Killed by Police Officials, Security
Guards, and Self-Appointed “Keepers of the Peace” between January 1, 2012 and March
31, 2012

- 28 cases of state sanctioned or justified murder of Black people in the first 3
months of 2012 alone have been found (due to under reporting and discriminatory
methods of documentation, it is likely that there are more that our research has yet
to uncover)

- Of the 28 killed people, 18 were definitely unarmed. 2 probably had firearms, 8
were alleged to have non-lethal weapons.

- Of the 28 killed people,

. 11 were innocent of any illegal behavior or behavior that involved a
threat to anyone (although the shooters claimed they looked “suspicious”

. 7 were emotionally disturbed and/or displaying strange behavior.

. The remaining 10 were either engaged in illegal or potentially illegal
activity, or there was too little info to determine circumstances of their
killing. It appears that in all but two of these cases, illegal and/or harmful
behavior could have been stopped without the use of lethal force.

Perhaps in the future we will have easy access to such statistics, instead of spending hours trying to find them, so everybody can understand what is really occurring.

 

[Bamspeedy]

That's interesting, but where's the list of white people killed since Jan 2012 by police/'security'?

 

[woody60707]

Froma I'm not disagree with your view on the justice system as a whole, but why does it all seem to fall down on Zimmerman's shoulders? This is a case where it's very debatable if any of Zimmerman's actions were even affect by race. Race as a factor was at most very sublet or completely subconscious.

With people like Sheriff Joe and the like, Why is Zimmerman set up to be the person to pay for all our sins.

 

[woody60707]

WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.

When you compare Trayvon’s non-fatal injury with Zimmerman's bloody head wounds, the autopsy evidence is better for the defense, Sheaffer said.

“It goes along with Zimmerman's story that he acted in self-defense, because he was getting beaten up by Trayvon Martin,” Sheaffer said.

The injury to Martin’s knuckle also fits with Zimmerman's story that before he shot and killed Martin, Martin had broken his nose and knocked him to the ground, slamming his head on the sidewalk. ...

But Sheaffer said there could be another explanation for Martin's knuckle injury.

“It could be consistent with Trayvon either trying to get away or defend himself,” Sheaffer said.

Zimmerman shot and killed the unarmed teenager almost three months ago after calling 911 to report the teenager was acting suspiciously.

Zimmerman said Martin threw the first punch and that he opened fire in self-defense after his screams for help went unanswered.

The FBI was not able to determine whether it was Zimmerman or Trayvon who could be heard crying out for help in 911 calls.

http://www.wftv.com/news/news/local/autopsy-results-show-trayvon-martin-had-injuries-h/nN6gs/

Lets get this thread back on topic with real news on the case.

 

[Berzerker]

WFTV has learned that the medical examiner found two injuries on Martin’s body: The fatal gunshot wound and broken skin on his knuckles.

wonderful

and I still cant see any head wounds on the video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station!!!

 

[woody60707]

wonderful

and I still cant see any head wounds on the video of Zimmerman arriving at the police station!!!

If I show pictures of his head wounds, i'll just assume that won't change your mind on what happen. I mean to ask why make that post if the small truth of this one fact doesn't change anything?

 

[kramerfan86]

This still doesnt really resolve anything because the core question is who initiated the conflict. If Zimmerman initiated it then its irrelevant he started losing the fight badly.

 

[JollyRoger]

Intersting that Zimmerman seemd very mobile in the police video and refused medical treatment beyond a little bit at the scene that night. The next day, his private doctor finds all sorts of things wrong with him. It looks like he was getting his ass kicked by someone he shouldn not have stalked.

 

[Berzerker]

If I show pictures of his head wounds, i'll just assume that won't change your mind on what happen. I mean to ask why make that post if the small truth of this one fact doesn't change anything?

sarcasm/

I was repeating what Zimmerman's accusers told me when the video surfaced

I've been arguing this was self defense all along

This still doesnt really resolve anything because the core question is who initiated the conflict. If Zimmerman initiated it then its irrelevant he started losing the fight badly.

Thats right, and we have no evidence Zimmerman started the fight

so why was he charged?

its political, thats why...

 

[JollyRoger]

We have evidence that he ended it. He is free to present a defense. Hopefully, for his sake, he won't contradict his prior story as much as he did the last time the was on the witness stand.

 

[woody60707]

This still doesnt really resolve anything because the core question is who initiated the conflict. If Zimmerman initiated it then its irrelevant he started losing the fight badly.

http://forums.civfanatics.com/showpost.php?p=11321944&postcount=49

LOL yea, we've been over then from the start of the first thread. No one yet can prove Zimmerman did anything illegal up till the point that the gun went off, and he is claiming self defense for that action.

 

[Berzerker]

We have evidence

You need evidence the homicide was unjustified

and all you got is media BS, like calling a neighborhood watch volunteer a stalker

 

[Traitorfish]

Are you claiming that "neighbourhood watch volunteer" and "stalker" are mutually exclusive categories?

 

[MobBoss]

Intersting that Zimmerman seemd very mobile in the police video and refused medical treatment beyond a little bit at the scene that night. The next day, his private doctor finds all sorts of things wrong with him. It looks like he was getting his ass kicked by someone he shouldn not have stalked.

It would appear Zimmerman did have a broken nose and other injuries as well. http://usnews.msnbc.msn.com/_news/2...cian-zimmerman-had-broken-nose-black-eye?lite

 

[woody60707]

We have evidence that he ended it. He is free to present a defense. Hopefully, for his sake, he won't contradict his prior story as much as he did the last time the was on the witness stand.

When did this happen? You and I have been over this. At most you have said that Zimmerman knew the cops were coming and should not have been in fear of great bodily harm or loss of life. Are you changing your stance?

It's rude to answer a question with a question