Victory In Iraq?

MobBoss

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Well, it appears Obama has picked the date of when Victory in Iraq will be claimed by the democrats. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/27/obama-iraq-plan-end-war-complete-mission/

In 18 months, President Obama plans to give America what it hoped it had six years ago -- its "Mission Accomplished" moment in Iraq.

Obama announced Friday his plan to end combat operations in Iraq by the end of August 2010, saying the goal of a "sovereign, stable and self-reliant" Iraq is achievable. Senior officials said the war, effectively, will end before Labor Day next year.

But even supporters of the plan warn that any success in Iraq is fragile. And even if the war is over, the job still is far from done.

President Bush was accused of prematurely declaring victory in May 2003, when he gave a speech aboard the USS Abraham Lincoln in front of a banner that read "Mission Accomplished." As for the headline on Aug. 31, 2010, it may be more like "Mission Accomplished" with an asterisk.

"It's not a mission accomplished day until the Iraqi people are completely able to defend themselves and their international borders without any international assistance," retired Army Lt. Col. Robert Maginnis said.

"There's a temptation to say it's all done, we don't have to worry about what's going on. But we do," he said.

Some analysts warn that U.S. involvement will be necessary for years to come. That obligation is reflected in the administration's withdrawal plan.

Obama would not only retain the flexibility to slow down or reverse the withdrawals if conditions deteriorate, but he also will keep up to 50,000 troops as a residual force in Iraq after the deadline.

The White House says combat brigades will be gone, but "advisory and assistance brigades" will stay. Their mission is to train and advise Iraqi forces, conduct targeted counter-terrorism missions and protect the ongoing civilian and military efforts in the country.

And although Obama said he intends to abide by the Status of Forces Agreement requiring the removal of all U.S. troops by the end of 2011, Defense Secretary Robert Gates said Friday he envisions keeping a small contingent of U.S. troops in Iraq even after the 2011 deadline.

There is a clause in the agreement that allows for a prolonged U.S. presence if the Iraqis request it and if the U.S. agrees.

"My own view would be that we should be prepared to have some very modest-sized presence for training and helping them with their new equipment and providing, perhaps, intelligence support and so on beyond that," Gates said.

Maginnis told FOXNews.com he expects the Iraqis to request an extension of U.S. presence after 2011, since they still need help in training to protect their Syrian and Iranian borders.

"We train professional forces all over the world and it takes decades to do that," he said. "And we're not there yet."

Gen. Ray Odierno, the top commander in Iraq, told FOX News that he thinks the U.S. military will in fact be out by 2011.

"I think the 2 1/2- to 3-year time period we have left is just about the right time period for us, for Iraq to exercise its full sovereignty, and it's time for us to go," Odierno said.

But although some areas of Iraq have begun to stabilize, other areas, like the northern city of Mosul, are still filled with Al Qaeda in Iraq fighters. Commanders say they are worried the oil center of Kirkuk could erupt with sectarian friction. And U.S. troops are still working with an unprofessional and corruption-plagued police force.

Army Maj. Gen. Bob Scales, former head of the Army War College, told FOX News the timeline in place is appropriate. But he said the mission nevertheless will broaden, not disappear, once Iraq is in the rearview.

"Now it's the responsibility of the Iraqi people to get their own country up and running," Scales said. "And our remaining mission is not in Iraq so much, but it's in the region. And that's of course to become engaged in Afghanistan and Pakistan and prevent the spread of radicalism from spreading to the rest of the region."

Sen. John McCain, R-Ariz., told FOX News on Friday he supports the president's plan, but he said it should be clear that a third of the current troop strength will stay "in harm's way" after August 2010. He continues to worry about Iranian influence in the region.

"This is still a fragile, fragile success," McCain said.

A key factor in defining success is defining the mission. And the mission has undoubtedly changed -- from toppling Saddam Hussein to beating back the insurgency that sprouted and kept U.S. forces in the country years longer than expected.

Maginnis said it's reasonable to expect the U.S. can turn over control of all provinces to the Iraqis by Obama's deadline and leave security largely in their hands. But training might have to continue and counter-insurgency efforts will probably linger.

"Insurgencies typically last nine to 12 years and this one is not anywhere close to being over," he said.

Obama said Friday during his address to Marines in North Carolina that he's not aiming for a perfectly stable and peaceful Iraq

"We cannot rid Iraq of every single individual who opposes America or sympathizes with our adversaries," Obama said. "We cannot police Iraq's streets until they are completely safe, nor stay until Iraq's union is perfected."

But he said U.S. troops nevertheless completed the mission that was assigned to them.

"We sent our troops to Iraq to do away with Saddam Hussein's regime -- and you got the job done. We kept our troops in Iraq to help establish a sovereign government -- and you got the job done," Obama said. "And we will leave the Iraqi people with a hard-earned opportunity to live a better life -- that is your achievement. That is the prospect that you have made possible."

I wonder if certain dems like Harry Reid who said the Iraq war was 'lost' some time ago, will retract their statements in the face of their party leader claiming victory?

And what about our local naysayers, like Neomega, Civgeneral, and others who have been very vocal about the war in Iraq being unwinnable and a failure? Are those folks going to admit their error as well? Or will they stand their ground even in the face of Obama's own 'Mission Accomplished' statement coming up?

Discuss. Its it truly a victory? I think so. What do you think?
 
Well, it appears Obama has picked the date of when Victory in Iraq will be claimed by the democrats. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/27/obama-iraq-plan-end-war-complete-mission/



I wonder if certain dems like Harry Reid who said the Iraq war was 'lost' some time ago, will retract their statements in the face of their party leader claiming victory?

And what about our local naysayers, like Neomega, Civgeneral, and others who have been very vocal about the war in Iraq being unwinnable and a failure? Are those folks going to admit their error as well? Or will they stand their ground even in the face of Obama's own 'Mission Accomplished' statement coming up?

Discuss. Its it truly a victory? I think so. What do you think?
Harry Reid & his ilk will not retract their statments & the mainstream media will not utter a peep about what the naysayers in the past said.

The posters on this board will credit Obama with succeeding where Bush did not via some "Baghdad Bob" type spin.

If it is truly a victory or not will not be known until we see what happens in Iraq in the decade or 2 after we're out of there.
 
Well, MB, I think you know I've been pretty consistent in my views.

I'm glad its winding down and I'm glad that we'll be getting out in such a way that it can be argued that we "won".

That said, the question, to me, is not that simple by a stretch.

I was opposed to the war and I think that given the massive loss of life for the Iraqi people and destruction of property etc... as well as the way that we conducted so much of the war... it was not worth it.

But, once it was started and undertaken, there's no going back. And, in that light, I'm glad that we seem to have completed it (god willing) and that we turned it around.

So, for me, its very bittersweet. Glad it will be over, but disappointed that the whole endeavor happened in the first place.... actually my feelings are more complicated than that, but that's a decent summation for now.
 
I'm worried about Iran.

Yes, I'm on topic.
 
Shane: doesnt the 'it was not worth it' moment remain to be seen?

Same thing would have been easy to say in Germany or Japan just after WWII due to the massive number of lives lost there too.

Depending on what happens in Iraq in the next 20 to 50 years, Bush may indeed be vindicated....or maybe not. Only time will tell. But us pulling out as we claim 'victory' is going to be credited in history more to Bush than it will Obama, I think.
 
Shane: doesnt the 'it was not worth it' moment remain to be seen?
Possible, but there's no massive upside to the world that might not have been gained alternately (we'll never know) without the deaths of (minimum) 10s of thousands, if not more.
Same thing would have been easy to say in Germany or Japan just after WWII due to the massive number of lives lost there too.
Sorry, but this is not a valid comparison. There is no way possible to reasonably compare this to WWII. Those were necessary. We had no choice. I could go on and on, but you know what I mean so I don't need to chase this red herring further.
Depending on what happens in Iraq in the next 20 to 50 years, Bush may indeed be vindicated....or maybe not. Only time will tell. But us pulling out as we claim 'victory' is going to be credited in history more to Bush than it will Obama, I think.
I'll agree that good or bad Bush deserves 90% (99%?) of the "credit". That said, I base my low expectations on the pattern of history in countries where the US has caused "regime change". Its not good. South Vietnam, Iran, Guatemala, Chile, etc... Horrible.

That said, the idea that history "repeats itself" is a bit of a myth. It never does, exactly. So, perhaps Iraq is the exception to our long, failed history or regime change.
 
Victory in Iraq

When Britain withdrew from various parts of its Empire, it
didn't proclaim Victory. I am not sure if the USA will do so.

No matter, if and when President Obama and/or the democrats
proclaim Victory in Iraq, I may, if still alive, comment then.

However for the time being, I rather think I will comment
on what he, the USA and the UK actually do, rather than on
your strawman assumption of what you think he might say.
 
Victory in Iraq was achieved the second the US went to war in 2003.
 
Discuss. Its it truly a victory? I think so. What do you think?


I'd say Bush's mission accomplished statement was the first part of victory (Saddam was successfully put out of business), and everything else afterwords was to pre-empt a religious revolution in Iraq and for anti-terrorist intel (including reconning dead terrorist leaders), so double thumbs up.

The main judgement calls of whether or not Bush was right to invade, and what the lasting diplomatic effects of the invasion are, will be discussed long after. No whitewashing or party-stamp-of-approval will do anything about those; I wouldn't expect one nor see one as necessary. Hopefully the public will get an inquiry into the real need for invading Iraq and if there were any preventable judgement errors in it.

Overall, If staying in Iraq were more wanted (it doesn't seem to be---both by Iraqis and much of the American public as well as world opinion), more affordable, and of intel value, I'd say stay, but I kind of think Obama is correct to declare it a victory in the interest of putting the USA beyond Iraq and to focus on salvaging Afghanistan.
 
He is doing what i voted for him to do. Democracy in action.
 
Well, it appears Obama has picked the date of when Victory in Iraq will be claimed by the democrats. http://www.foxnews.com/politics/first100days/2009/02/27/obama-iraq-plan-end-war-complete-mission/
Got any non-Fox News sources. Opponents of the Iraq War won't even bother looking at that site. I had to go to another source other than Fox News.

MobBoss said:
And what about our local naysayers, like Neomega, CivGeneral, and others who have been very vocal about the war in Iraq being unwinnable and a failure? Are those folks going to admit their error as well? Or will they stand their ground even in the face of Obama's own 'Mission Accomplished' statement coming up?
Fixed for ya, there's a capital G in my nick.

Moving on, Its about damn time that were going to be leaving Iraq. Being opposed to the war does not make one a "naysayer". I have seen improvements in the war and started to think that it became winable. However, it does not change the fact that we barged into Iraq looking for WMDs that wherent even in the country and poor inteligence with Iraq along with poor rationalities on invading Iraq. It was good that Saddam was toppled, but it could have been done differently.

"Admit their error" sounds a bit harsh there so im going along with warming towards the prospect of victory in Iraq.
 
Winable? We already won.

Done differently? We tried everything short liberation prior to it. The Iraqi people wanted him overthrown, and they wanted representation. They were none too happy about terrorists groups and insurgents groups fighting in the streets and cities against the US and other countries. They also didn't like certain tactics by some of the US troops. You couldn't say they were rooting for any side.

Strategy, tactics, and execution was screwed up. That was fixed. Now, it is won.

The biggest problem and only true problem is Iran.
 
Sorry, but this is not a valid comparison. There is no way possible to reasonably compare this to WWII. Those were necessary. We had no choice. I could go on and on, but you know what I mean so I don't need to chase this red herring further.

Its not a red herring, Shane. My comparison isnt relative to the scale of the destruction or the size of the war. Its merely to point out that its way too early to tell if such a comment will remain valid or not.

I'll agree that good or bad Bush deserves 90% (99%?) of the "credit". That said, I base my low expectations on the pattern of history in countries where the US has caused "regime change". Its not good. South Vietnam, Iran, Guatemala, Chile, etc... Horrible.

Japan? Germany? South Korea? Phillipines?
 
Got any non-Fox News sources.

Oh for Gods sake Civg. :rolleyes:

Opponents of the Iraq War won't even bother looking at that site. I had to go to another source other than Fox News.

If you found another source why ask me for one? :crazyeye:

Moving on, Its about damn time that were going to be leaving Iraq. Being opposed to the war does not make one a "naysayer".

Oi vey.

"Admit their error" sounds a bit harsh there so im going along with warming towards the prospect of victory in Iraq.

Are you not on record as saying that the meatgrinder in Iraq is unwinnable? :rolleyes:
 
Japan? Germany? South Korea? Phillipines?

Those successes only highlight how dire the more recent attempts have been.
 
Winable? We already won.

The biggest problem and only true problem is Iran.
We did not won when Bush said "mission acomplished" on that carrier deck, we did not won after Saddam was toppled.

And were not going to be invading Iran any time soon.
 
In Vietnam, we were up against a very popular leader, and we supported a dictator.

The US is not very well liked by the RoK. We gave them dictatorship, they tried to get our help in creating a republic, and we did not help them. They are a true republic now, but it wasn't until long after the Korean "War."

CG, read what I write not what you assume.
 
We did not won when Bush said "mission acomplished" on that carrier deck, we did not won after Saddam was toppled.

And were not going to be invading Iran any time soon.

Again, Civg, the Bush 'mission accomplished' was to signify the defeat of the Iraqi military and the toppling of Saddam. It was simply closing one phase of the operation and starting a new one.
 
What Shane said.

I would go further and say that even if Iraq becomes some sort of bastion of democracy and peace for a thousand years, how it happened was still wrong and we should not repeat it, ever. It is not our job to go around overthrowing dictators on the other side of the world and creating democracies. May be a noble goal, but that is not our job, and I wouldn't want any other country to get it in their head that it is their job either.

Anyways, that was not why we went there in the first place.
 
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