arkham4269
Court Writer - Orbis Mod
Another thing to possibly steal would be the Army system from History of the Three Kingdoms. Not only is it really cool, the AI uses it!
Vincentz Infinite Projects [VIP MOD]
- Thread starter vincentz
- Start date
arkham4269
Court Writer - Orbis Mod
Will this break saved games?
xarver
Socialist Libertarian
going to try this out, looks good 
Hi everyboody!
First i would like to say thanks vincentz for this great mod, it's just marvelous!
And second: I would like to ask for some help. In the last 2 versions i could not build monasteries, leading to not be able to spread religion ( I prefer confucianism for the benefit of courthouse
) leading to not being able to build the apostolic palace. Additionally in this last version i even can't choose state religion. (I have clean install for vip80, in different directory)
Am i doing something wrong?
Thank you very much!
First i would like to say thanks vincentz for this great mod, it's just marvelous!
And second: I would like to ask for some help. In the last 2 versions i could not build monasteries, leading to not be able to spread religion ( I prefer confucianism for the benefit of courthouse
) leading to not being able to build the apostolic palace. Additionally in this last version i even can't choose state religion. (I have clean install for vip80, in different directory)Am i doing something wrong?
Thank you very much!
@ Kilotango
To get a state religion you need another civic than paganism and secularism.
To build Monastaries you need the state religion in the city as well as Meditation. Also Monastaries obsoletes with Scientific Method.
I have changed the requirements for building monastaries, because if you had 3 religions in a city you could build 3 monastaries giving + 30% science. I love monastaries and understand their value in history, both as spiritual but also educational (before printing almost all books in europe was written by monks) but +30% is a bit too much. Also with the granting of a Spiritual Promotion it would become completely overkill with 3+ monastaries.
BTW: Welcome to CFC
@ arkham
I'm not sure. most likely not. (Savegame compatible)
BTW : Great suggestions. However, there is a reason that this mod is so stable. I have written almost all of the code myself, and primarely in XML which is a very simple language. Most advanced mod components are written in either Python or C++ (dll) which I dont master. I would propably be able to merge certain mods, but the stability would definately fall by doing so, so I choose not to. I originally set out on this voyage because A: Civ 5 sucks and B: I couldnt find a "big" mod that was stable/optimized enough for me to play to the end on my rather low end computer, 1.5GB RAM/128MB Graphics (I hated it when playing hour after hour, and then suddenly there was a dead end bug making it impossible to play further) and C: I love modding.
If I changed my mind later there is already atleast 20+ mod components I wanted to add. My Secret Agents was actually made to fit the Super Spies mod, and a lot of other stuff I made for Rise of Mankind also had to be modified alot to fit to the original DLL. But suggestions are always welcome.
To get a state religion you need another civic than paganism and secularism.
To build Monastaries you need the state religion in the city as well as Meditation. Also Monastaries obsoletes with Scientific Method.
I have changed the requirements for building monastaries, because if you had 3 religions in a city you could build 3 monastaries giving + 30% science. I love monastaries and understand their value in history, both as spiritual but also educational (before printing almost all books in europe was written by monks) but +30% is a bit too much. Also with the granting of a Spiritual Promotion it would become completely overkill with 3+ monastaries.
BTW: Welcome to CFC
@ arkham
I'm not sure. most likely not. (Savegame compatible)
BTW : Great suggestions. However, there is a reason that this mod is so stable. I have written almost all of the code myself, and primarely in XML which is a very simple language. Most advanced mod components are written in either Python or C++ (dll) which I dont master. I would propably be able to merge certain mods, but the stability would definately fall by doing so, so I choose not to. I originally set out on this voyage because A: Civ 5 sucks and B: I couldnt find a "big" mod that was stable/optimized enough for me to play to the end on my rather low end computer, 1.5GB RAM/128MB Graphics (I hated it when playing hour after hour, and then suddenly there was a dead end bug making it impossible to play further) and C: I love modding.
If I changed my mind later there is already atleast 20+ mod components I wanted to add. My Secret Agents was actually made to fit the Super Spies mod, and a lot of other stuff I made for Rise of Mankind also had to be modified alot to fit to the original DLL. But suggestions are always welcome.
chaoskishin
Chieftain
- Joined
- Jun 6, 2011
- Messages
- 1
I think you've made a great Mod and I'm really enjoying it. But there's one problem I've come across: if you've met the 'four World Wonder' cap in a city and you later found a religion there, a Great Prophet will not be able to create that religion's holy site since they are World Wonders. One way around that might be to make them National Wonders. That wouldn't make much difference since there can only ever be one Holy City per religion, but then you run into the National Wonder cap. It still might work fine since there are far fewer National Wonders then there are World Wonders.
You've probably been asked this question bunches of times: Have you considered merging in the BUG mod?
You've probably been asked this question bunches of times: Have you considered merging in the BUG mod?
j_mie6
Deity
It may be possible to increase the wonder amount value by 1 if the city is holy with python...
(1) In vanilla there is a National Wonder Cap on 2 iirc.
It requires planning to get the right 2 nat. wonders together.
In VIP there is a World Wonder Cap on 4.
It requires planning to get the right 4 world wonders together.
(2) Read the post before yours
BTW : Welcome to CFC
2evster48
Chieftain
Just downloaded latest version of your excellent mod - it's one of my favourites striking the right balance between extra content and playablility. On my first game I noticed that the Elder Council seems to have disappeared - after researching Ritualism I can build Stonehenge but not the EC although both should appear with Ritualism. Has it moved or am I missing something?
The Elder Council fits IMHO better the description of an early tribal government.
I really thought it was strange how a first settler would settle and call this "small" settlement for a capital and have a grandure palace build instantly. I also sometimes settled my first city, only to discover later that it was at the outskirts of the empire, and that the second or third city would be a much better Capital.
The change I made was an instant built Elder Council in the first city, and then after researching Masonry a Palace could be built.
So the reason why you cannot build Elder Council is that it is already built
It should however be possible to build it in your second city if Ritualism is discovered.
I am considering to expand (divide) the Palace into multible departments such as Throneroom, Treasury, Palace Garden, Dungeon etc etc, so not all the boni the Palace gives are given instantly (its quite a powerfull building with boni to trade, happiness, culture and espionage)
Its also one of the things I really miss from previous civs (throneroom, palacebuilding, wealth collection etc).
I really thought it was strange how a first settler would settle and call this "small" settlement for a capital and have a grandure palace build instantly. I also sometimes settled my first city, only to discover later that it was at the outskirts of the empire, and that the second or third city would be a much better Capital.
The change I made was an instant built Elder Council in the first city, and then after researching Masonry a Palace could be built.
So the reason why you cannot build Elder Council is that it is already built
It should however be possible to build it in your second city if Ritualism is discovered.
I am considering to expand (divide) the Palace into multible departments such as Throneroom, Treasury, Palace Garden, Dungeon etc etc, so not all the boni the Palace gives are given instantly (its quite a powerfull building with boni to trade, happiness, culture and espionage)
Its also one of the things I really miss from previous civs (throneroom, palacebuilding, wealth collection etc).
Regarding monasteries and building missionaries. I've changed it so that cathedrals will also allow you to train missionaries to spread religion. That way even if you didn't get a particular monastery built before they went obsolete, if you have enough of that religion spread throughout your land you could still spread the religion should you choose.
An easy xml change and possibly something to consider adopting.
An easy xml change and possibly something to consider adopting.
Thats a very good idea. I'll adopt it
edit : eh.. how?
the <PrereqBuilding>BUILDING_religion_MONASTERY</PrereqBuilding> in Civ4Unitinfos.xml cannot be used for multible buildings.
arkham4269
Court Writer - Orbis Mod
Playing a game as India w/VIP 80 and I'm still noticing some serious issues.
* Armies are too large: I had a the Incans attack one of my cities with over 40+ units. Most of these were new so pretty much their entire Civ output was military production. That is not a sustainable model historically and is unbalanced game play otherwise.
* Espionage is totally out of whack: I had my espionage at 25% with 5 with every civ except the Incans at 10 had mausoleums, courthouses & security bureaus in all my cities and still I was getting hacked almost every turn. There needs to be some sort of penalty for having spies get found out. I mean I was catching spies left and right. After a while this should give me bonus. As it stands, I'm going to turn off espionage. It unbalances the game because some Civs seem to use it as one of their prime strategies and that isn't historically viable either.
* NEED DEFENSIVE FIRE! In the 40+ Unit attack on a major city with all the defensive works, the Incans were having FIRST ROUND kills against RIFLEMAN. I have about 5 canons, 2 bombards and a Trebechet and it didn't do me squat. I think you really need to add the modpack where certain units fire first. I've done a lot of ACW table-top miniature fights and I tell you ACW cav attacking into a city without canon support is suicide. That was also the other amazing thing. Except for one canon, all the attacks went in without reducing my city at all and still the 20+ cav were able to wipe out my 30+ defenders.
* Upgrades: I said it earlier but your system to increase costs throws the balance off of upgrading units. Especially if you need to start cranking out the newer units, the cost to upgrade a longbowmen can end up being like 1,000+ gold which is just too much. Need to have some way to upgrade w/o hitting that increase cost threshold.
Beyond that the Global Warming seemed better. Still had a few squares prior to 1800's but there didn't seem to be as bad health issues.
But really, the fact that the AI seemed to be 'cheating' in that the Incan player had about the same size empire as mine (on Prince) and I was barely able to keep up with most of my cities devoted to research and wealth and even then I couldn't seem to break even between building new units and upgrading others.
I'm sorry but the AI really ruins many mods by only seeming to go one route: spam units and attack.
* Armies are too large: I had a the Incans attack one of my cities with over 40+ units. Most of these were new so pretty much their entire Civ output was military production. That is not a sustainable model historically and is unbalanced game play otherwise.
* Espionage is totally out of whack: I had my espionage at 25% with 5 with every civ except the Incans at 10 had mausoleums, courthouses & security bureaus in all my cities and still I was getting hacked almost every turn. There needs to be some sort of penalty for having spies get found out. I mean I was catching spies left and right. After a while this should give me bonus. As it stands, I'm going to turn off espionage. It unbalances the game because some Civs seem to use it as one of their prime strategies and that isn't historically viable either.
* NEED DEFENSIVE FIRE! In the 40+ Unit attack on a major city with all the defensive works, the Incans were having FIRST ROUND kills against RIFLEMAN. I have about 5 canons, 2 bombards and a Trebechet and it didn't do me squat. I think you really need to add the modpack where certain units fire first. I've done a lot of ACW table-top miniature fights and I tell you ACW cav attacking into a city without canon support is suicide. That was also the other amazing thing. Except for one canon, all the attacks went in without reducing my city at all and still the 20+ cav were able to wipe out my 30+ defenders.
* Upgrades: I said it earlier but your system to increase costs throws the balance off of upgrading units. Especially if you need to start cranking out the newer units, the cost to upgrade a longbowmen can end up being like 1,000+ gold which is just too much. Need to have some way to upgrade w/o hitting that increase cost threshold.
Beyond that the Global Warming seemed better. Still had a few squares prior to 1800's but there didn't seem to be as bad health issues.
But really, the fact that the AI seemed to be 'cheating' in that the Incan player had about the same size empire as mine (on Prince) and I was barely able to keep up with most of my cities devoted to research and wealth and even then I couldn't seem to break even between building new units and upgrading others.
I'm sorry but the AI really ruins many mods by only seeming to go one route: spam units and attack.
arkham4269
Court Writer - Orbis Mod
Quick thing about defensive fire: It makes no sense for an attacker to lead with Cavalry without any artillery support. Plus cannons should be the first things to be destroyed which at least allows them to do collateral damage to the attacking army...which is how it should be.
Cavalry really need a bad minus in attack cities. It anything it would represent them having to have 1/4 of their people holding the horses. Plus, if it could be done, cavalry attacking cities shouldn't have a chance to retreat since they are actually attacking as dismounted infantry anyway.
Another thing that seems weird. In a previous attack, the Incans lost about 20+ units with very little to show for it. They should get some serious
penalty to get them to want make peace faster. No one back homes likes to a war to start by having their boys come home in body bags with nothing to show for it.
Cavalry really need a bad minus in attack cities. It anything it would represent them having to have 1/4 of their people holding the horses. Plus, if it could be done, cavalry attacking cities shouldn't have a chance to retreat since they are actually attacking as dismounted infantry anyway.
Another thing that seems weird. In a previous attack, the Incans lost about 20+ units with very little to show for it. They should get some serious
penalty to get them to want make peace faster. No one back homes likes to a war to start by having their boys come home in body bags with nothing to show for it.Thats a very good idea. I'll adopt it
edit : eh.. how?
the <PrereqBuilding>BUILDING_religion_MONASTERY</PrereqBuilding> in Civ4Unitinfos.xml cannot be used for multible buildings.
Ah I should have explained. I made a new unit called "priests" that fulfill the role of spreading religion from Cathedrals. Just cut and pasted the missionary code and changed it so they require Cathedral to be built. I gave the priests more movement points but limited them to 2 per civ. I also increased missionary build costs to make priests a more efficient way of spreading religion.
@ Arkham
I'm sorry to say, but the things you find irritating, I read as great news!
I'll try to "defend" it with red text :
I'm sorry to say, but the things you find irritating, I read as great news!
I'll try to "defend" it with red text :
Playing a game as India w/VIP 80 and I'm still noticing some serious issues.
* Armies are too large: I had a the Incans attack one of my cities with over 40+ units. Most of these were new so pretty much their entire Civ output was military production. That is not a sustainable model historically and is unbalanced game play otherwise.
Better too large armies than too small. I did make an extra speed for Epic and Normal that multiplied unit and building production time, so less armies were produced. If you play at normal speed it is called Normal+. I removed the Epic version, as another player requested shorter building times for epic. However an AI with a big army is IMHO a much "healthier" sign, and provide more of a challenge, than an AI that can be steamrolled with a few units.
* Espionage is totally out of whack: I had my espionage at 25% with 5 with every civ except the Incans at 10 had mausoleums, courthouses & security bureaus in all my cities and still I was getting hacked almost every turn. There needs to be some sort of penalty for having spies get found out. I mean I was catching spies left and right. After a while this should give me bonus. As it stands, I'm going to turn off espionage. It unbalances the game because some Civs seem to use it as one of their prime strategies and that isn't historically viable either.
This is another great news for me. Throughout history people have copied what others do. Not every civilization have invented everything they use, nor has it been properly traded. Most of the time it has been studied and then copied, but other times it has been stolen. It is by far the easier sollution to steal the plans of a spaceship, than to invent it yourself. Intelligence and counterintelligence have very hign priority in real life, and especially the later can be used in game with units such as the agent and special agent.
* NEED DEFENSIVE FIRE! In the 40+ Unit attack on a major city with all the defensive works, the Incans were having FIRST ROUND kills against RIFLEMAN. I have about 5 canons, 2 bombards and a Trebechet and it didn't do me squat. I think you really need to add the modpack where certain units fire first. I've done a lot of ACW table-top miniature fights and I tell you ACW cav attacking into a city without canon support is suicide. That was also the other amazing thing. Except for one canon, all the attacks went in without reducing my city at all and still the 20+ cav were able to wipe out my 30+ defenders.
This is maybe a question about balancing the cavalry, but this is also great news yet again. A 40+ unit attack from an AI. Thats a serious can of wupass
* Upgrades: I said it earlier but your system to increase costs throws the balance off of upgrading units. Especially if you need to start cranking out the newer units, the cost to upgrade a longbowmen can end up being like 1,000+ gold which is just too much. Need to have some way to upgrade w/o hitting that increase cost threshold.
The reason why upgrades are so expensive is due to the fact that I increased unitcost extensively. F.ex. a longbowman in vanilla cost 50 while in VIP it costs 120, and a Rifleman cost 110 in vanilla and 400 in VIP. However in Vanilla the upgrade costs 3 per hammer while in VIP it only cost 1 (both have a base cost of 20) So the math would be :
Upg longbow to rifle :
Vanilla : 20+((110-50)x3)= 200
VIP : 20+((400-120)x1)=300
I think that it maybe also scales with gamespeed/mapsize, so it seems like a lot more than vanilla.
Beyond that the Global Warming seemed better. Still had a few squares prior to 1800's but there didn't seem to be as bad health issues.
I found a way to change the global warming to another type than desert, and will experiment with a Wasteland terraintype, but will also delay it a bit more to avoid GW before industrial era.
But really, the fact that the AI seemed to be 'cheating' in that the Incan player had about the same size empire as mine (on Prince) and I was barely able to keep up with most of my cities devoted to research and wealth and even then I couldn't seem to break even between building new units and upgrading others.
Here is the cheats that the AI gets on Prince :
....Civilization 4\Beyond the Sword\Mods\VIP\Assets\XML\GameInfo/CIV4HandicapInfo.xml
The AI always play on Noble, so to see what advantages it gets you can compare Noble to Prince. F.ex. :
<iFreeUnits>8</iFreeUnits> vs <iFreeUnits>6</iFreeUnits> means that the AI can have 8 units it doesnt have to pay for while you on prince only can have 6.
<iResearchPercent>100</iResearchPercent> vs <iResearchPercent>110</iResearchPercent> means that your research cost is 110% while the AI only has to pay 100% etc etc.
Iirc I didnt change any modifiers from Vanilla, so it should be same same.
One way to check out the AI (which actually do some brilliant stuff from time to time, so its also good as a learner of new tricks) is to write CHIPOTLE in Cheats in the Civ ini file in the BtS documents folder. This enables a huge number of nice features, where among others the Ctlr+Z reveals the entire map and makes it possible to view enemy cityscreens. Another is Alt+Z (or X, cant remember) that switches the player civ with an AI.
I'm sorry but the AI really ruins many mods by only seeming to go one route: spam units and attack.
I do see a lot of different AI types, but then again I know what to look for, and I guess its mostly the aggressive ones that get seen
Quick thing about defensive fire: It makes no sense for an attacker to lead with Cavalry without any artillery support. Plus cannons should be the first things to be destroyed which at least allows them to do collateral damage to the attacking army...which is how it should be.
There is sooooo much wrong with the combat system in civ4. We just have to imagine our way out of it unfortunately. Some mods try to improve it, but most can be used by the human player in ways the AI doesnt understand, and is therefore IMHO a cheat. I have tried very hard to avoid those kind of cheats (or advantages for the human player).
Cavalry really need a bad minus in attack cities. It anything it would represent them having to have 1/4 of their people holding the horses. Plus, if it could be done, cavalry attacking cities shouldn't have a chance to retreat since they are actually attacking as dismounted infantry anyway.
That is doable and together with a early siege penalty for defending in forests, I'll implement it.
Another thing that seems weird. In a previous attack, the Incans lost about 20+ units with very little to show for it. They should get some serious
In general I think the WW (war weariness) is too soft, but I kind of remember a thread describing the AI not really suffering from WW at all. A quick Ctlr+Z check would reveal if or how much WW impacts on AIs. But I might increase it alot anyhow.
Might make a "bishop" type of missionary like this. Not a bad idea.
arkham4269
Court Writer - Orbis Mod
In regard to espionage:
I have no problem (other than it being irritating) when someone steals a tech. What I don't like and find not historically accurate is having every other civ on the planet destroying factories in my cities, destroying farms and the like.
Okay I could see this happening if the balance of your city happiness was because then the espionage could represent potential rebels or discontented citizens.
However I was losing farms, towns and buildings to attacks, usually once or twice every few turns. Think of it this way: when a town is destroyed by a spy, what did they do? Blow up the local dam to swamp it? I mean 9-11 was a "espionage" attack and see what that did!
Again, I think espionage *attacks* need to be only possible during times of war or when the target countries overall happiness is at a really low level.
Plus, spies getting caught is always bad. However stealing tech, spreading culture and all that more "agitprop" is one thing: actively blowing up stuff and the like? That is an act of war! Other countries also would be wary of it because it could be used against them.
I have no problem (other than it being irritating) when someone steals a tech. What I don't like and find not historically accurate is having every other civ on the planet destroying factories in my cities, destroying farms and the like.
Okay I could see this happening if the balance of your city happiness was
because then the espionage could represent potential rebels or discontented citizens.However I was losing farms, towns and buildings to attacks, usually once or twice every few turns. Think of it this way: when a town is destroyed by a spy, what did they do? Blow up the local dam to swamp it? I mean 9-11 was a "espionage" attack and see what that did!
Again, I think espionage *attacks* need to be only possible during times of war or when the target countries overall happiness is at a really low level.
Plus, spies getting caught is always bad. However stealing tech, spreading culture and all that more "agitprop" is one thing: actively blowing up stuff and the like? That is an act of war! Other countries also would be wary of it because it could be used against them.
arkham4269
Court Writer - Orbis Mod
As for the big armies, I believe that prior to certain very later game techs, that armies shouldn't be huge simply because there wasn't the support system to feed them. Having large armies means you have significant portion or your people doing nothing.
Think about it. Until after WW II, the United States had practically no army. In except for European powers who fought each other a lot, most countries didn't have much in the way of standing armies. The ability to have large armies didn't come till agricultural advances (techs like the McCormick reaper) and refrigeration came along which allowed to sustain large armies in the field. The whole idea of canned food came about because Napoleon desperately a way to feed his Grand Armee.
I think your mod has a good idea: militia units. I personally think keeping armies should be expensive. I've already pointed out I think you need to steal the Fall From Heaven (or the Orbis mod-mod) mod's mercenary system. It gives you access to units fast...if you have the money. So if war breaks out you can temporarily stop spending on practically nothing else and have troops for war...but it isn't sustainable which is how it should be.
I also think (and I think some mods have this) where you can 'conscript' and create militia units at the cost of population. I think this needs to be available earlier. Of course these militia units taken from a population need to be able to be 'destroyed' so they can go back to being civilians. Other than professional mercenaries, most armies where made up of such conscripted citizens.
Again I think the cost of maintaining armies is far to low in this mod. Having to face multiple stacks of 20-50 units from just one possible enemy is too much. I mean I was having to garrison most of my cities with 20+ units and even then I had to hope that my general higher tech level would save me in case of attack.
I'm sorry but a nation with riflemen and cavalry shouldn't have to live in fear that they are going to get attacked by a "Mongolian horde" of cuirusiers and musketmen. While it is "okay" for the AI to do a algorithmic "I have enough combat odds" the reality is that Civ is doing an attack which will result in massive casualties for little gain. having massive casualties on a day like D-Day or a battle like Antietam is one thing; to lose a large portion of your military in the first opening attack is another...ESPECIALLY if you are aggressor! Even the cruelest dictator couldn't afford to throw away that many lives because it would provoke a revolt back home. People back winners and losing most of your army to barely take a city (which is often taken right back) isn't right. I mean this is a civilization simulator game; the combat system often times negates this.
Think about it. Until after WW II, the United States had practically no army. In except for European powers who fought each other a lot, most countries didn't have much in the way of standing armies. The ability to have large armies didn't come till agricultural advances (techs like the McCormick reaper) and refrigeration came along which allowed to sustain large armies in the field. The whole idea of canned food came about because Napoleon desperately a way to feed his Grand Armee.
I think your mod has a good idea: militia units. I personally think keeping armies should be expensive. I've already pointed out I think you need to steal the Fall From Heaven (or the Orbis mod-mod) mod's mercenary system. It gives you access to units fast...if you have the money. So if war breaks out you can temporarily stop spending on practically nothing else and have troops for war...but it isn't sustainable which is how it should be.
I also think (and I think some mods have this) where you can 'conscript' and create militia units at the cost of population. I think this needs to be available earlier. Of course these militia units taken from a population need to be able to be 'destroyed' so they can go back to being civilians. Other than professional mercenaries, most armies where made up of such conscripted citizens.
Again I think the cost of maintaining armies is far to low in this mod. Having to face multiple stacks of 20-50 units from just one possible enemy is too much. I mean I was having to garrison most of my cities with 20+ units and even then I had to hope that my general higher tech level would save me in case of attack.
I'm sorry but a nation with riflemen and cavalry shouldn't have to live in fear that they are going to get attacked by a "Mongolian horde" of cuirusiers and musketmen. While it is "okay" for the AI to do a algorithmic "I have enough combat odds" the reality is that Civ is doing an attack which will result in massive casualties for little gain. having massive casualties on a day like D-Day or a battle like Antietam is one thing; to lose a large portion of your military in the first opening attack is another...ESPECIALLY if you are aggressor! Even the cruelest dictator couldn't afford to throw away that many lives because it would provoke a revolt back home. People back winners and losing most of your army to barely take a city (which is often taken right back) isn't right. I mean this is a civilization simulator game; the combat system often times negates this.
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