Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

[Pongui]

Printer does not need to obsolete....

Ah, sweet music. I was a printer. Obsoleted by computers.

I understand the relative importance of (printing-press) printers diminished long ago, much like bakers, so it makes sense these buildings vanish in later eras. I like that later buildings consolidate the traits of earlier ones.

Yet I also like the limited buildings. City specialization is good fun, and it keeps the list from becoming a grind. That approach to simplification must be difficult to reconcile with buildings that are supposed to include others, e.g. the supermarket includes the bakery. Then add the unpredictability of corporate stores.

 

[Vokarya]

What if we put Zone of Control on the Radar Station? I think that would be appropriate. I hate using a mechanic only once, but I think ZoC should be pushed off a little. I've always thought Radar Station to be a touch redundant with Bunker (that's why it has a Power requirement) and ZoC would make it stand out.

 

[Vokarya]

Here's another side note: I've been having second thoughts on the relevancy of Painter's Studio/Photographer's Studio.

They feel like clutter at the moment, as their only major purpose is the Artist specialist slot. There is already enough gold and culture floating around by this point in the game. What could happen is moving the Artist specialist slot to the Art Gallery, deleting the Gallery's building requirement, and increasing its culture from +10% to +15%.

The main argument against this is that the relevant technologies of Perspective and Photography wouldn't be doing so well without these buildings. Both techs would still be viable in terms of meeting the two-trick threshold, but 3+ tricks is better, and I especially like to have one, or better two, non-unique tricks per tech. Perspective's other tricks are unique, being Leonardo's Workshop and Sistine Chapel, and Photography has the Agent and the free Great Artist, so one unique trick there. Another argument is that I think these buildings have to go together because they are a line, and the Renaissance Era is hurting for buildings while the Industrial has more than enough, and I don't want to lower the number of buildings in the Renaissance at all.

So I probably won't delete them, but it wouldn't be a big loss if they were removed.

 

[Vokarya]

I had another idea some time ago and I'm getting around to posting it. I think more buildings should be dependent on the completion of the Internet. Right now, the only thing dependent on the Net is the Great Firewall. I think certain buildings in the very late Modern Era and Transhuman Era wouldn't function without a global network. You can make any building dependent on a Project by defining it as the appropriate <SpecialBuildingType>.

This is what this would extend to:

• E-Bank
• Info Net
• Network Node
• Voting Link
  
• Mind Storage
• Global Stock Exchange
• Technological Capital

I'd love to include Mapster here as well, but Mapster is already defined as a Corporate Headquarters special building, and you can't have more than one special building type.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I'm ok with your proposed changes. I think you already know it but ZoC is already being used twice in the mod: Moat and Sea Control promotion (IIRC the name).

 

[Vokarya]

I'm ok with your proposed changes. I think you already know it but ZoC is already being used twice in the mod: Moat and Sea Control promotion (IIRC the name).

I was actually talking about buildings. Sea Control is okay but it operates on a different plane; if I remember right, it affects naval mobility but not land mobility. This will affect late-game land mobility more.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I was actually talking about buildings. Sea Control is okay but it operates on a different plane; if I remember right, it affects naval mobility but not land mobility. This will affect late-game land mobility more.

Ok, I thought you were talking about the concept of ZoC. You know, I've never tried if a Sea Control promotion only affect sea units. I suppose so, but I need to look at the code; since both Afforess and me worked on that part of the code, I don't remember who has done what in there.

 

[gay_Aleks]

What if we put Zone of Control on the Radar Station? I think that would be appropriate. I hate using a mechanic only once, but I think ZoC should be pushed off a little. I've always thought Radar Station to be a touch redundant with Bunker (that's why it has a Power requirement) and ZoC would make it stand out.

Then the cost of Radar Station should increase, yes?

 

[Vokarya]

Then the cost of Radar Station should increase, yes?

Most likely. Radar Station is very cheap. There are several buildings that I think could be recalibrated.

There is a lot of range in building costs. I looked at the building costs in BTS and the defensive buildings are generally among the cheapest for their era. Walls are second only to Monument in the Ancient Era; Castle is the cheapest Medieval building; Bomb Shelter and Bunker are the cheapest Industrial buildings. I don't think very much attention has been paid overall to building costs.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Most likely. Radar Station is very cheap. There are several buildings that I think could be recalibrated.

There is a lot of range in building costs. I looked at the building costs in BTS and the defensive buildings are generally among the cheapest for their era. Walls are second only to Monument in the Ancient Era; Castle is the cheapest Medieval building; Bomb Shelter and Bunker are the cheapest Industrial buildings. I don't think very much attention has been paid overall to building costs.

You're right and lately I was thinking the same about units. I think most units are way too cheap than they should be: think about it, a carrier with its planes or a group of bombers are no real threat for an army here. But in the real world they are. Missiles are almost useless. Even using a large fleet armed with missiles and bombers you can probably damage too little a fraction of enemy's army, because spawning units is probably too easy. Am I the only one seeing this problem?

 

[Samson]

You're right and lately I was thinking the same about units. I think most units are way too cheap than they should be: think about it, a carrier with its planes or a group of bombers are no real threat for an army here. But in the real world they are. Missiles are almost useless. Even using a large fleet armed with missiles and bombers you can probably damage too little a fraction of enemy's army, because spawning units is probably too easy. Am I the only one seeing this problem?

I agree. Once I have the heroic epic I can frequently build 5 - 10 units per term in that city, which makes unit costs far more significant in building up an army.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I agree. Once I have the heroic epic I can frequently build 5 - 10 units per term in that city, which makes unit costs far more significant in building up an army.

Which suggests that units cost should be increased at least 5 times.
Strange as it might sound, it's more or less what I was thinking of. I'm not saying I want to do it straight away without further consideration but let's think about it.

 

[Rezca]

I agree. Once I have the heroic epic I can frequently build 5 - 10 units per term in that city, which makes unit costs far more significant in building up an army.

One reason why I never play with Multiple Production on

Which suggests that units cost should be increased at least 5 times.
Strange as it might sound, it's more or less what I was thinking of. I'm not saying I want to do it straight away without further consideration but let's think about it.

C2C actually has a game option (Or had? haven't played in ages) that would scale up production costs by a certain amount. After a while I always played with it on because the sometimes hundreds of Production Overflow cities would be perpetually stuck in meant every city could produce half a dozen things per turn, and then get overflow for that and thus produce another half a dozen things the next turn. On that note, I'd just say disable Production Overflow itself, but even in AND it's easy to set up a city for multiple units a turn, even if it doesn't happen with EVERY city

 

[Samson]

Which suggests that units cost should be increased at least 5 times.
Strange as it might sound, it's more or less what I was thinking of. I'm not saying I want to do it straight away without further consideration but let's think about it.

This sounds good to me, though as I am a scientist who tends more towards Galileo than Plato * I would say that if there was a (metaprogramming?) way of increasing all the unit costs by 5 I would give it a go and report back.

One reason why I never play with Multiple Production on

I have tried that, but then I find that soon enough most decent cities can build 1 unit per turn, so there is little value in the Heroic epic etc. Also to get the most out of your production you need to switch between units and expensive buildings, or trade units. This means more unfun micromanagement.

*

Spoiler :

In that I believe more in "give it a go and see what happens" rather than "spend loads of time thinking about the best way to do it".

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Well, increasing units costs is really easy, I can just multiply by 5 iTrainPercent and that's it. Problem is that research is also connected with production time for units and buildings and doing so might throw the game out of balance.

 

[Vokarya]

Well, increasing units costs is really easy, I can just multiply by 5 iTrainPercent and that's it. Problem is that research is also connected with production time for units and buildings and doing so might throw the game out of balance.

I wouldn't go all the way to 5x cost to start. Maybe 3x cost would be better for an experiment?

 

[Vokarya]

I was looking at the building list in the extreme late game to figure out if there is something to be done with "straggler" buildings. One of them is Docks. For a city with river access but not coastal, it sticks around forever. I had an idea for a small redesign:

• Instead of +2 flat commerce, +1 commerce per 2 connected cities, to a maximum of +3.
• Upgrades to Railway Station. This is when overland transport can compete with water transport. (It used to obsolete at Railroad, but I've started to dislike formal obsoleting.)

Railway Station produces enough commerce that I think it would be a very rare situation for the Docks -> Railway path to be a disadvantage. I ran some calcs: it would have to be an empire of exactly 4-8 cities, no capital connection, and no foreign connections. With capital connection, Railway Station is at least always equal to Docks.

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

I wouldn't go all the way to 5x cost to start. Maybe 3x cost would be better for an experiment?

Ok, I will run some test before increasing it to 3x and uploading the change. I would like to hear if someone has something to say against this proposal.

 

[Vokarya]

I'm writing down some other thoughts on very old buildings that I think something should be done with in the late game, because they don't seem to be doing much else.

Apiary: This could probably obsolete somewhere, perhaps around Vertical Farming if not before.

Brothel: I want to say this should obsolete at Androids. Or maybe evolve into something else there.

Courthouse: I feel there's room to make this a building chain, with toning down the original Courthouse and offering an upgrade at Jurisprudence.

Library: This should be able to do something in the Transhuman Era; I'm envisioning some kind of "Knowledge Bank" building to replace it. The big thing to watch for is that Library underpins a very long string of science buildings, so we have to be careful about what we may be kicking out the supports from underneath.

 

[Vokarya]

Ok, I will run some test before increasing it to 3x and uploading the change. I would like to hear if someone has something to say against this proposal.

I think if you're going to do a change like this, then you do need to test it first. But if it is necessary for balance, then we should change things around. I've noticed there are definitely times when units are produced too quickly. Archers in the Classical Era are a good example.