Vokarya's Workshop: Buildings

[Vokarya]

Question about the Corporation buildings... If one switches to a Civic in which corporations have no effect, do the corp'-specific buildings themselves keep fully working? If not, then having ordinary buildings "upgrade" to corp'-specific buildings as outlined above is in my view a problem.

I would be hesitant to build Red Curtains Theaters if it meant that I might lose the theaters' effects entirely if I lost access to the corporation for whatever reason (e.g. a competing corp' was spread to the city). If Red Curtains has no competitors, Civ' Jewellers (as discussed earlier in this thread) certainly does.

Cheers, A.

I did some testing. Corporation buildings stay in effect if you switch to a civic that disallows corporations. You can't found new Corporations, train Executives, or spread Corporations with existing Executives. You can still build the Corporate Store building in a city with the corporation, but the corporation would have to been spread to the city before the civic change.

If a competing corporation spreads to the city, then you lose the benefits of the Corporate Store, but any buildings that the store replaced are reactivated. So in the Red Curtains example, if Mapster (which competes with RC) spreads to the city, Red Curtains Theater is deactivated (it's not lost, but it shows up as a red fist building), but you either regain the ability to build a Movie Theatre or reactivate an existing one.

 

[Rezca]

I did some testing. Corporation buildings stay in effect if you switch to a civic that disallows corporations. You can't found new Corporations, train Executives, or spread Corporations with existing Executives. You can still build the Corporate Store building in a city with the corporation, but the corporation would have to been spread to the city before the civic change.

If a competing corporation spreads to the city, then you lose the benefits of the Corporate Store, but any buildings that the store replaced are reactivated. So in the Red Curtains example, if Mapster (which competes with RC) spreads to the city, Red Curtains Theater is deactivated (it's not lost, but it shows up as a red fist building), but you either regain the ability to build a Movie Theatre or reactivate an existing one.

This is why I hated Realistic Corporations option so much - the number of times I've had a corporation I wanted be kicked out randomly and against my will because of a dice roll was so annoying. It wasn't even the AI doing it, it was my own empire messing around with it

The AI don't seem very keen on spreading their corporations much either... I saw Egypt found 7+ of them, not one ever left her borders - and she wasn't running civics that banned corps. What influences their decision to spread a corporation to friendly/rival lands?

 

[Vokarya]

So it was mentioned that Shopping District has a problem with losing Science when it upgrades Bazaar and Market because District lacks the commerce from Resources that the previous two buildings provide. I'm fine with removing the commerce bonuses and leaving the two buildings as gold-generators with a Merchant slot each.

However, Hypermarket will also have the same problem when it upgrades from Supermarket as it loses the commerce bonus from food resources. I don't want to just remove the commerce bonuses from Grocer and Supermarket as I feel that leaves Grocer not feeling like a Grocer, if it's just +25% gold, 1 Merchant slot, and +1 happy/-1 health from Tobacco. Supermarket is fine with +1 food and +1 health from each meat resource.

What if we do this?

• Remove the +25% gold from Grocer and Supermarket.
• Add +1 happiness from Coffee and Tea to Grocer. Supermarket already has this bonus.

Now Hypermarket gets an effective +50% gold over the Supermarket/Shopping District pair at the cost of up to 7 commerce, while leaving Grocer with enough benefits that we don't have to adjust its cost. I've always found Grocer to be a big gold swing when it appears and this might slow it down a little.

 

[IPEX-731BA5DD06]

Why completely remove the gold bonus, why not just increment them more.

Start at a 10% for Jeweller, 15% for Market, 15% or 20% for Grocer, etc.

Otherwise, why would you build them, removing 25% gold bonus seems a bit harsh.

A 25% bonus is a bit much, especially when combined with further upgrades.

 

[Vokarya]

Jewellery isn't losing any gold, and is just getting its commerce bonus curve flattened from 2-8 (2/resource) to 3-7 (2 base, +1/resource). I think there is still a bit too much commerce going on, especially with the Ancient Era going by so quickly, so that's why I don't have a problem with reducing commerce from Bazaar and Market and reducing gold from Grocer.

 

[nionios]

• Add +1 happiness from Coffee and Tea to Grocer. Supermarket already has this bonus.

I also think that there's already overabundance of happiness to add even more.

 

[Vokarya]

I also think that there's already overabundance of happiness to add even more.

I wanted to give Grocer back something for taking away its gold bonus without having to lower Grocer's cost, and it seemed fair to back-copy Supermarket's same bonus onto Grocer. I feel like the other Grocer bonuses (+1-7 commerce from resources, 1 Merchant slot, +1 happiness/-1 health from Tobacco) aren't quite enough to get the feel right. Is there something else that would fit the Grocer flavor?

 

[Samson]

Is there something else that would fit the Grocer flavor?

If you are actually asking, I still feel (from BtS) that the Grocer is the health type money making enterprise (where the Market is the happiness type money making enterprise) so you could add some extra health, perhaps something like the original Spices, Sugar and Wine (perhaps without Bananas as they are a bit different). I am not sure about this, there are lots of health sources and this may require some re-balancing.

 

[Vokarya]

If you are actually asking, I still feel (from BtS) that the Grocer is the health type money making enterprise (where the Market is the happiness type money making enterprise) so you could add some extra health, perhaps something like the original Spices, Sugar and Wine (perhaps without Bananas as they are a bit different). I am not sure about this, there are lots of health sources and this may require some re-balancing.

AND doesn't have either happiness from Market or health from Grocer. In fact, Grocer's only health adjustment is -1 from Tobacco. Market and Grocer are pretty indistinguishable right now, with both having +% gold, +commerce from resources, and 1 Merchant slot. Grocer gets +1 happiness/-1 health from Tobacco, which I almost think cancels itself out. I don't mind Market being flat gold without the commerce from resources. There aren't very many other buildings that give +% gold. I would like Grocer to have a bit more identity.

One thing that I did not think of until after I posted is what if Grocer gave +1 food (increasing Supermarket and Hypermarket to +2)? It would help cities grow faster but wouldn't support an extra population all by itself.

 

[Vokarya]

Here is another thing I have noticed about being too restrictive with natural resource requirements to get manufactured resources. Should the entire nanotech section rest on Coal? Right now, Nano Research Department requires Coal and produces Nanotubes. Nanite Lab requires Nanotubes and produces Nanobots. Nanotubes and Nanobots are required for a lot of late game buildings and units, but if you don't have Coal, you are locked out. Yes, nanotubes are made from carbon, but for game purposes, I think we might need to broaden this a little. What if it was Coal or Oil or Methane Ice? I'd especially like to have another use for MI.

 

[aggri1]

... I think we might need to broaden this a little. What if it was Coal or Oil or Methane Ice? I'd especially like to have another use for MI.

Yes!

Though I don't think I've ever seen a lack of coal. By the later game stage, certainly, the remaining larger Civs usually have enough land that they all have plenty of coal. But the principle of what you propose I support wholeheartedly!

 

[<Nexus>]

Grocer:
The +1 seems acceptable IMO.

Nanostuff:
I'm a bit dubious about the real life requirements of producing nanotubes. I would be even okay to drop any prerequisite... But as a second thought it would give methane ice some more usefulness. So yes, please

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Here is another thing I have noticed about being too restrictive with natural resource requirements to get manufactured resources. Should the entire nanotech section rest on Coal? Right now, Nano Research Department requires Coal and produces Nanotubes. Nanite Lab requires Nanotubes and produces Nanobots. Nanotubes and Nanobots are required for a lot of late game buildings and units, but if you don't have Coal, you are locked out. Yes, nanotubes are made from carbon, but for game purposes, I think we might need to broaden this a little. What if it was Coal or Oil or Methane Ice? I'd especially like to have another use for MI.

Good idea!

 

[Arakhor]

I'm good with that too.

 

[Vokarya]

Here are two things I thought of when working on my building spreadsheet. (It's done now. Now that I made it, I have to figure out what to do with it). These relate to links between Transhuman Era buildings.

Nanofactory: When I made my list of "orphan" buildings (buildings without connections to other buildings), I noticed this was on the list. I think in this case, it would be appropriate for Nanofactory to replace both Manufacturing Plant and Industrial Robots, since they are the heaviest factories available at the time. I do not want to mess too much with Factory itself, as I think Factory is a necessary building for a city founded in the Industrial Age or later to bootstrap its way up between newly-founded and mature, but I think it would be appropriate for a factory using big robots (Mfg + I.Robots) to be replaced by a factory using little ones (Nanofac).

These are the actual changes.

• Nanofactory replaces Manufacturing Plant and Industrial Robots; Nanofactory bonuses increase from +25% production to +100% production and +10% commerce (+25% innate, +40% from Mfg Plant, +25% from Industrial Robots, +10% just to round it up; +10% commerce from Mfg Plant)
• Omnifactory replaces Nanofactory and increase production to +300% (slightly less than Nanofactory's bonus, but OF's bonus is larger than the sum of the buildings it's replacing)

Another thing I just noticed; Omnifactory does not need Engineer slots at all. It requires Post-Scarcity civic, and Post-Scarcity allows unlimited Engineers.

Mech Assembly Plant: This currently only has a building requirement of Computer Network. I think it should require in addition an investment in industrial capability to be able to build Mecha units. I think the appropriate requirement would be Manufacturing Plant or Nanofactory or Omnifactory. This is just a building requirement, not an upgrade.

 

[aggri1]

Mech Assembly Plant: This currently only has a building requirement of Computer Network. I think it should require in addition an investment in industrial capability to be able to build Mecha units. I think the appropriate requirement would be Manufacturing Plant or Nanofactory or Omnifactory. This is just a building requirement, not an upgrade.

Agree. Also with your Nanofactory stuff.

 

[Rezca]

Definitely agree with the resources - Methane Ice should have some uses in the late game. Okay with the second ideas about the Factories as well.

 

[Vokarya]

It looks like I am going to delete the commerce bonuses to Bazaar and Market in my next build (this smooths out the transition to Shopping District). Would anyone mind if I removed Bazaar's resource requirement as well? I think Bazaar is important to get early because it ramps up your gold production but you can't really build it without getting one of the key resources. Also, only two of the four resources are available right away (Spices and Tea have to wait until Calendar).

 

[45°38'N-13°47'E]

Not sure, bazaar looks like a civ specific building and requiring some resources was somehow compensating for making it available for every civ. But I understand your idea so all in all I'm neutral on it.

 

[Vokarya]

I did some testing with Casino, and I don't think there is a way for Casino to work with 1 citizen employed without cranking the other bonuses incredibly high. I do like the idea of Casino being a "swing building" where it's not always a good idea to build it (like Brothel or Tax Office) but a city with enough other bonuses can take advantage of it. However, Casino's bonuses are currently not nearly enough to make up for its penalty.

So this is what I was thinking to upgrade Casino:

• Lower cost to 300
• Increase gold to +30%
• Increase culture to +2
• Add +1 happiness (maybe too much?)