Von Neumann Machines

[Commodore]

For those who are not aware of what a Von Neumann machine is here is a link.

Now I have read that if there is another intelligent species out there, they have not built Von Neumann machines because if they had they would have consumed the entire galaxy and we would not be here right now.

So what do you think? Have Von Neumanns been built and are they slowly eating their way across the galaxy towards us or have they not been built because no civilization would be stupid enough to build something that would eventually lead to the end of just about everything? Or do you think that some intelligent civilization did build Von Neumann machines and they were smart enough to program them not to overconsume?

Another point of discussion is should humans look into the application of Von Neumann machines? Their most promising application seems to be in deep space mining and manufacturing.

 

[strijder20]

I am one.

 

[AL_DA_GREAT]

Just like with animals there is a limit to how many they can rebuild. Resources limit it greatly. Many animal species can create thousands of new animals in a few weeks.

 

[warpus]

Even if Von Neumann machines exist, it doesn't mean that they're going to consume the entire universe.. or even a galaxy.. or a solar system.

It's like saying that since there are washing machines on the Earth that there isn't any dirty underwear.

 

[strijder20]

When they have consumed a planet, I don't see how they could get to another place. It would require an awful lot of energy, and they are bound to crash onto a planet or burn up once.

 

[Commodore]

Even if Von Neumann machines exist, it doesn't mean that they're going to consume the entire universe.. or even a galaxy.. or a solar system.

It's like saying that since there are washing machines on the Earth that there isn't any dirty underwear.

One of the theores I read involved the machines being designed to mine asteroids and other space objects (that would cover how they get from planet to planet) and their programming would somehow become corrupted which would lead to unrestricted consumption until nothing is left to consume.

When they have consumed a planet, I don't see how they could get to another place. It would require an awful lot of energy, and they are bound to crash onto a planet or burn up once.

I guess that would depend on what kind of intelligence they were programmed with. If they were intelligent enough, they would construct small mining vessels able to enter the atmosphere of a planet and strip mine it to nothing and then move on.

 

[Verarde]

I have to agree with warpus here. I don't think that any alien civilizations even exist, let alone build one of these machines.
Now, could humans build one? With enough research grants and time yes, but I don't see their current practical application. I think the money is better spent fixing the problems we have here.

 

[Eat_Up_Martha]

It doesn't seem a great logical leap to assume that any alien race intelligent enough to create self-replicating machines is also intelligent enough to program them to maintain limited numbers.

 

[Commodore]

It doesn't seem a great logical leap to assume that any alien race intelligent enough to create self-replicating machines is also intelligent enough to program them to maintain limited numbers.

And I would agree with that, but what if the program becomes corrupted somehow?

 

[Souron]

Even if they could leave a planet, how would they travel between stars?

 

[Commodore]

Even if they could leave a planet, how would they travel between stars?

I would assume that since they are machines, all they would have to do is calculate their destination, and give themselves a good boost towards it and then just shut themselves down and drift through space until they arrive.

No one ever said Von Neumanns consuming the galaxy would be a quick process. I would say that if it did happen, it would take thousands maybe even millions of years.

 

[tycoonist]

And I would agree with that, but what if the program becomes corrupted somehow?

You realise they would still need input material to replicate themselves? Much like if humans tripled our population, we would soon fall back to a more sustainable number as there would not be sufficient resources to sustain our numbers.

Besides, why does the program inevitably have to become corrupted in such a way that replication runs out of control? Putting limits on during building of hard ware would be simple enough.

 

[Cutlass]

Even if it happened, we'd never know until they got here. Because they wouldn't be able to consume stars. And so would leave no evidence we could see at a distance.

 

[warpus]

I guess that would depend on what kind of intelligence they were programmed with. If they were intelligent enough, they would construct small mining vessels able to enter the atmosphere of a planet and strip mine it to nothing and then move on.

Well yeah, exactly, it depends on what KIND of Von Neumann machines you build. If you make them universe-destroying hyper-intelligent mofos, they will mess us up. But that doesn't mean that Von Neumann machines are inherently Universe consuming

 

[Antilogic]

You guys play way too much Sword of the Stars.

Machines are no different than other animals--hard limits on resources, given the vast distances involved, there is still some power consumption or decay even when most systems are deactivated, it's hard to imagine this actually happening.

 

[Arwon]

Greenfly takes a while to spread. Be patient.

 

[emzie]

One of the theores I read involved the machines being designed to mine asteroids and other space objects (that would cover how they get from planet to planet) and their programming would somehow become corrupted which would lead to unrestricted consumption until nothing is left to consume.

These designed machines have the ability to travel through intersteller space at high speed without being destroyed by collisions with dust / gas?

I don't think yer grasping how big space is here. Pioneer 10 would take 61 billion years to reach Andromeda (assuming that Andromeda was 3 million light years away and stayed constant during the time frame). This is about 5 times longer than the universe has existed. Even if you increase your Von Neumann machine's speed by an order of magnitude over Pioneer 10, you're still looking at 6.1 billion years, or ~half the age of the universe.

Now consider that most galaxies are moving away from one another, often faster (relative to one another) than the proposed speeds I gave for a Von Neumann machine, and you'll never reach them, unless you develop FTL speed and give it to autonomous robots for some reason.

Of course, you and I are Von Neumann machines, just not ones designed.

 

[warpus]

You guys play way too much Sword of the Stars.

Machines are no different than other animals--hard limits on resources, given the vast distances involved, there is still some power consumption or decay even when most systems are deactivated, it's hard to imagine this actually happening.

Star Control 2 FTW

 

[Ramius75]

Star Control 2 FTW

one of the best game ever


@topic- i think most clever civilisation will actually put a limit on the machine itself too..

perhaps to 3-4 generation each.

 

[Singularity]

In terms of application I would propose a few more relevant fields than deep space mining probes. Toxic waste management and recycling of such waste into new and refineable/collectable resources comes to mind. Also, you could have tiers of Von Neumann machines designed to clean up lower tiers and eventually "return it to base". The more tiers you have the more control of the von neumans you have since you can limit their task and potential for spreading beyond their original mandate. If you make a single unit that can perform a multitude of tasks you obviously run a risk of loosing control of it with catastropic effects or have it used as an unconventional weapon with the same catastropic effect. Edit: Also, it might be potential to use Von Neumans as a means of disposing of asteroids or comets that will crash into earth.

In terms of cataclysmic Von Neumans you have the Grey Goo scenario. This cloud of Von Neumann nanobots basically is designed to perform a certain task and then "evolves" to an uncontrolled state where it's design allow it to replicate so fast and wide that we can't stop it and it eventually suffocate/destroy the entire biosphere of earth. I guess if they where hardy enough they could in theory survive an interspellar trip on a planetary remnant expelled from one stellar system and grabbed by the gravitonic field of another and eventually land on a planetary body that could sustain the production of new generations of Von Neumans. Entropy suggests otherwise though.