Vox Populi Diplomacy Feedback

[Recursive]

Sorry, maybe this is an offtop. A quick question:
Egypt conquers Korean city.
Me(Danish) declare war on Egypt and conquer that city for me.(got something like 120-140 hate warmonger score)
Egypt 2 turns later conquer it back. 3 turns later I conquer it again. After that my warmonger score was something like 280.
Is it is a bug or not?

I was thinking that warmonger score will not increase second time for the same city and war...

You can get warmongering penalties for capturing the same city several times. Intended (by Firaxis).

Additional diplomacy change for next version:

Added more nuance to new "captured cities" factor in approach calculation
- Counts how many cities each player has captured from the other, subtracts cities captured from the AI from cities the AI captured from the player
- If the difference is positive (AI has captured more cities), they're more likely to be hostile and finish the job, unless weaker (in which case they'll expect revenge and be more GUARDED)
- If the difference is negative (AI has had more cities captured), they're more likely to be defensive and less likely to be hostile, unless stronger (in which case they'll seek revenge)
- Only applies if proximity is CLOSE or NEIGHBORS (so capturing a lone city on another continent will not affect this)

This should help somewhat for the AI repeatedly declaring wars that they lose.

 

[lunker]

Not sure if this was a change you made but I saw the diplo mod "You lowered their influence with a coup d'etat" or something. Pretty happy to see this but it seems to hurt relations with civs who didn't own the city state too. I think it should only hurt relations with the civ that you stole the CS from.

 

[Rafs]

Thank you for your hard work Recursive, though I'd ask if it's possible to remove the penalty to capture/kill civilians if it's done upon city capture? I've had some AIs park 2-3 workers in there and once I take the city, I take a big diplo hit with them (annoying if I vassal), and a smaller one with all players. Can it be avoided in any way?

 

[Recursive]

Not sure if this was a change you made but I saw the diplo mod "You lowered their influence with a coup d'etat" or something. Pretty happy to see this but it seems to hurt relations with civs who didn't own the city state too. I think it should only hurt relations with the civ that you stole the CS from.

Successful coups reduce Influence for all other civs with positive Influence, not just the previous ally, so all civs who lost Influence when you violently overthrew the smaller nation's government apply the penalty. That's the idea, anyway, inspired by the Cold War. The penalty is doubled for the previous ally, though.

Thank you for your hard work Recursive, though I'd ask if it's possible to remove the penalty to capture/kill civilians if it's done upon city capture? I've had some AIs park 2-3 workers in there and once I take the city, I take a big diplo hit with them (annoying if I vassal), and a smaller one with all players. Can it be avoided in any way?

I could nullify the penalty if a unit is captured on a city tile (although there's the question of whether that would work with OCC), if that's what people want.

 

[lunker]

Successful coups reduce Influence for all other civs with positive Influence, not just the previous ally, so all civs who lost Influence when you violently overthrew the smaller nation's government apply the penalty. That's the idea, anyway, inspired by the Cold War. The penalty is doubled for the previous ally, though.

I see. I didn't know coups reduced other civ's influence (thought it was just a switcharoo), so I can understand why it would anger other civs. I have a bit of a problem with this because it's impossible to know who you're going to upset when performing a coup.

Edit: If it's possible to differentiate, I think I would be very satisfied if the diplo mod decayed for civs who did not own the CS.

 

[Recursive]

I see. I didn't know coups reduced other civ's influence (thought it was just a switcharoo), so I can understand why it would anger other civs. I have a bit of a problem with this because it's impossible to know who you're going to upset when performing a coup.

Edit: If it's possible to differentiate, I think I would be very satisfied if the diplo mod decayed for civs who did not own the CS.

It decays for all civs already.

 

[civplayer33]

I could nullify the penalty if a unit is captured on a city tile (although there's the question of whether that would work with OCC), if that's what people want.

Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

 

[lunker]

It decays for all civs already.

Been playing with transparent diplomacy and I haven't noticed a decay on the mods. Do they just disappear eventually or is it gradual?

 

[Recursive]

Been playing with transparent diplomachy and I haven't noticed a decay on the mods. Do they just disappear eventually or is it gradual?

It's intended to disappear after 50 turns (standard speed).

Yeah, I think that's a good idea.

Thought about it, and yeah, I'll nullify it for next version.

 

[Vhozite]

Does the AI ever use diplomats or trade for votes? I always try to have strong diplo presence even if I’m not going for that victory and the AI never seems to ask for votes.

In my last game as Russia I spent most of the game with double the amount of votes most other civs had and nobody cared to try and buy votes. I dominated WC all game until the Netherlands caught up in votes with Freedom and a bunch of successful coup’s.

I was also never able to buy votes from either of my two vassals (always impossible) and I’m running into this same issue in my current game as Songhai.

 

[crdvis16]

Does the AI ever use diplomats or trade for votes? I always try to have strong diplo presence even if I’m not going for that victory and the AI never seems to ask for votes.

In my last game as Russia I spent most of the game with double the amount of votes most other civs had and nobody cared to try and buy votes. I dominated WC all game until the Netherlands caught up in votes with Freedom and a bunch of successful coup’s.

I was also never able to buy votes from either of my two vassals (always impossible) and I’m running into this same issue in my current game as Songhai.

I pretty regularly see the AI offer to buy votes.

 

[Stalker0]

I'm definitely seeing the effects of the new proximity modifier in my latest game. China is my neighbor and hated my guts early on. We were at constant war. But once I put her down a few times and got strong, China changed her tune. We are now strong friends, have a defensive pact, and have been excellent trade partners for a long time.

The one thing I'll is that China is paying me for votes (which is great to see), however, twice now they have been votes for the resolution I proposed. Aka China is paying me to vote the way I was probably going to vote anyway.

 

[Recursive]

I'm definitely seeing the effects of the new proximity modifier in my latest game. China is my neighbor and hated my guts early on. We were at constant war. But once I put her down a few times and got strong, China changed her tune. We are now strong friends, have a defensive pact, and have been excellent trade partners for a long time.

The one thing I'll is that China is paying me for votes (which is great to see), however, twice now they have been votes for the resolution I proposed. Aka China is paying me to vote the way I was probably going to vote anyway.

No, you're not. It's not added yet.

The AI has no way to know how you'll vote unless they've paid you for votes, and it can therefore be of value to them to know how you'll vote.

 

[Stalker0]

No, you're not. It's not added yet.

hehe well that well shows the danger of relying on just a few pieces of anecdotal evidence My apologies.

 

[Arbi]

Intended, the penalty says "you are competing" but it really means "we want the City-State alliances you have, give them to us". Unfortunately there isn't a way to differentiate, however you can demand tribute/declare war on the City-State to cancel quests.

But is it reasonable to get a -30 penalty, which is the negative equivalent to a declaration of friendship? Especially considering that one can get the penalty by accidentally completing quests?

 

[Recursive]

But is it reasonable to get a -30 penalty, which is the negative equivalent to a declaration of friendship? Especially considering that one can get the penalty by accidentally completing quests?

The penalty depends on the Minor Civ Dispute Level, which is itself heavily dependent on the MinorCivCompetitiveness leader flavor. It'll vary based on the intensity of the competition and how much that AI player cares about Influence competition.

Also, Opinion is only one factor in deciding Approach, which is significantly more important than Opinion.

Transparent Diplomacy is useful, but it can lead you into a trap of thinking the numbers there are the only gauge of the AI's thoughts towards you. There are many other factors that the AI considers when making decisions.

 

[Tarzan737]

My feeling now is what causing biggest problem with diplomacy is when WC enters the game.. even your friends and so on start to vote for sanctions against you
(Probably because you are competing or are to strong) and i hate it. It should be possible to have friends even if you are strong.
My biggest concern is WC right now.

 

[Recursive]

My feeling now is what causing biggest problem with diplomacy is when WC enters the game.. even your friends and so on start to vote for sanctions against you
(Probably because you are competing or are to strong) and i hate it. It should be possible to have friends even if you are strong.
My biggest concern is WC right now.

Voting logic is separate from the diplomacy AI, but given the number of complaints about it, I'll take a look at it soon.

 

[Heinz_Guderian]

Gotta say the AI is quite impressive in general, so good work there. Not played enough to give specific feedback, but I do have a question:
Are these diplomacy changes in the CPP or do you have a separate mod that I need to get?

 

[Zuizgond]

Is the warmonger penalty reduced if you capture cities when you have been declared war on?