VQ06b - Emperor just win!

[namliaM]

Hmz, yes it is on tundra.... My bad...

That city will probably not be whipped... but we still get the extra hammer and we can mill 2 hills for maximum yield IMHO

I went into the world builder and rebuild our situation @ size 10


All options include a forge... so there is a bonus hammer in the pics
A) On the copper, 19 commerce , 6 Hammers
B) On any of the Hills, 17 commerce, 7 hammers (2 bonus hammers, Including 1 citizen which will starve for lack of food)
C) On the Tundra, 18 commerce, 6 hammers

In option A I must have added some science building.... as there is clearly 19 commerce... not 27

Both A and C can grow 4 more to 14. B is allready 1 to big, so cannot grow past 9.
On the copper (A) gets 1 Commerce more than C, both having 6 hammers.
B cannot grow past 9, has 7 hammers and is 1 commerce short of C, 2 commerce short of A.

For me this comes down to, do we want 1 extra hammer (B) vs 2 extra commerce (A)?

Sending the Irrigation arround the otherway uses 2 grass tiles, which could be Cottaged otherwize... Thats a sure fire 8gpt. Offcourse... if we can trade the wine for some happy resource that may be worth 8gpt easy....

 

[eektor]

Ahem ... and that is why I said we should settle on the copper

Actually A gives 4 commerce since B can't support that extra citizen it has. Also later on the windmill will give more commerce too.

Nice job with the screenshots there.

Oh and we definitely could get 8 gpt for the wine later on in the game.

 

[Cosmichail]

You sure do your homework.

On emporer those 2 extra commerce could mean a lot. However production will be terrible in that city and extra production seems better. Although it won't be enough production to make a difference unfortunately. Personally I like C why because we have 3 plains hills to work. With mills (although a long ways off) will be to produce some food/hammers (but can they be worked??). B though will be able to borrow food from Paris?? as per armstrong but how long can we do that before Paris needs it. I vote for C but I think you seasoned players will know best.

I am still getting used to SG at this point.

So when my turns comes up I will need some input..... (if armstrong uploads the save so eektor can play. Has any pm'd him to ask for it)

I like getting IW soon to see if we have the iron somewhere as that extra 10% attack might be the difference between winning or losing. Although lots of axes might do the trick do. That 2nd city is a primo spot and we should aim at getting that soon. I think we'll be up against axes too. It would be nice to scout the location but the sooner we attack the better as I have always found an immediate rush will catch them off guard. (at least on prince/monarch)

EDIT: in hindsight let's just settle on copper and get Khan, Khan, Khan..... echoes (Star Trek anyone)

 

[namliaM]

As to how to play SG, well you play like normal and for the first round only you take 20 turns. Meanwhile you take screenshots where needed to make your log more informative Screenies are ALLWAYS good.

On second thought about Irrigating... Paris is allready high on food. Dont need to Irrigate I think... And the extra hammer for our new town (working the plains)? Not worth it I think....

Anyhooo I send a PM to armstrong, lets hope he catches that PM or one of the cries for help in the thread. He allready missed 2 of em by Greyfox and Me.... Now there is a third, fourth and fifth...

On planning... Corney Hills is about to finish its Obelisk, it gets a barracks next... Then Axe only...
Paris, finish the worker. I think it allready has a barracks... So... Axe only.
Worker #1 priority connect the Copper

If we start hitting the happy limit on growing ... put a turn or 2 into a granary and whip that.
Paris we may want to whip a Library first before the Granary... Lots of food there and the 2 extra beakers are more than welcome....

The attack plan... Get 5 maybe 6 axe together. First act of war: Pillage the Copper! and keep the Axe comming.... I think we should be at war before the end of Cosmichail's turnset. Eektor may just be a little early... Looks like you will be getting a real jump into the deepend Cosmichail...

 

[armstrong]

Doh, here's the save!

http://forums.civfanatics.com/attachment.php?attachmentid=129851&stc=1&d=1150229455

I don't know how I missed that!

 

[eektor]

Woot! Now I'll say, "I got it."

I'll play tonight. I'm planning on putting the city on the copper so you guys got about 4 hours to convince me otherwise.

Not having looked at the save yet, I am hoping I would be able to get Cosmichail ready for war at the beginning of his turnset. Well, I'm still at work so I can't check the save out.

 

[Cosmichail]

@NamliaM,

Thanks for the pointers...

Looks like you will be getting a real jump into the deepend Cosmichail...

I like battle very much.....so eektor will declare war and get things started and of course if in my turn is needed will pillage copper first. Will look for forest hill/forest or hill whichever there maybe and get best defensive points. Will also avoid any cross river penalty. So if we take 2nd city do we sue for peace and try to get some techs??? Or keep going and try to finish him. What if his capitol is weak like on level land and just a couple of archers?? Even at 40% culture defense with CD1 archer will likely loose at least 2 max 3 axes under those circumstances.

As to Paris you say granary (if past happy limit) whip? I am favor of whipping Library although it depends on how many pop it takes of course. Are we having health issues in Paris?


Looking forward to playing.............May the RNGod be with me/ and us all..

 

[eektor]

Unfortunately this turnset was not so good.

Turn 0: 1600 BC
8 turns to connect copper
Moved Settler to copper hill

Turn 1: 1560 BC
Corney Hills: Obelisk -> Barracks
Worker sent to farm corn
Copper City founded
Science went down to 60%

Turn 3: 1480 BC
Warrior defeated by a barb archer. (over 50% of us winning that battle)

Turn 6: 1360 BC
Another warrior defeated by that barb archer. (again over 50% chance of us winning)
Paris: worker -> warrior
Sent a warrior to kill barb archer (100% chance to win and we win thankfully)

Turn 7: 1320 BC
Paris: warrior -> axeman
Oracle built in a distant land
Barbarian city pops us close by. (good for some xp before we attack KK)

Turn 8: 1280 BC
Building a mine near Paris

Turn 9: 1240 BC
Writing discovered. Research set to Iron Working.
Corney Hill: Barracks -> Library

Turn 11: 1160 BC
Paris: Axeman –> Axeman
Copper City: Barracks -> Axeman

Turn 12: 1120 BC
Corney Hill: switched library for axeman

Turn 14: 1040 BC
Paris: Axeman -> Axeman

Turn 17: 950 BC
OB with Cyrus
Paris: Axeman -> Axeman
Confucianism and Stonehedge founded/built in distant land

Turn 20: 875 BC
OB with JC
Paris: Axeman -> Axeman
Copper City: Axeman -> Axeman

Battle against Mycenean

3 axeman vs 3 archers (67% odds in our favor)
I figure 2 wins 1 loss, and the next player can finish it next turn.
Unfortunately the RNG god doesn’t like me at all and I lost two of them.



Comments
We have 3 axeman, two are on the way to the barb city.
Paris is building axeman every 3 turns and Copper City is building them every 6 turns.
I suggest razing the barb city because even though its city placement is alright, we can’t support that city right now.
KK has at least 5 cities now. (Wow these guys expand fast in emperor.)

4th city



5th city



15 turns till Iron Working is done.

 

[Cosmichail]

Look's like I am up so "I got it" and probably play tomorrow sometime.

As to war if we have a group of 8 axes go after Khan's 2nd city or the 5th aggrevating our borders. Also if we can't afford to take barb then should we wait until we can? Imo feel an immediate rush is necessary for the element of surprise. Khan is already becoming a monster. I take we don't have horses so have some good mobile troops won't be available.

I will check here for opinions before I start the game....

Cheers...

 

[eektor]

The barb city should be taken in like two or three turns. If we don't have the forces to take the barb city then we definitely can't take KK.

My suggestion is before you start the war send the axeman right outside of the copper. Then declare and pillage copper then take out that second city. Would be good to take out Old Sarai as well before we make peace, but that city is on top of a hill, so that could be a nightmare to take out.

 

[GreyFox]

When fighting against archers, don't trust the combat odds since it does not take into aco**** first strikes when presenting the % odds (although its does show the first strike text). My personal rule of tumb is always to deduct 20% of the combat odds before deciding whether is it a good fight (eg if combat odds show 60%, take away 20% of 60% = 12%, so the actual odds I estimate will be 48%).

--

I am inclined to ignore the barb city (its size 1 anyway right now, so it will autoraze), and start whipping axemen ... a group of 8 axemen would take one city alright, but consider the retaliation ... can we survive it? We have to cripple Khan beyond recovery.

IMHO, I think we need 2 groups of 5 axemans, and we need archery. We strike fast, take out 2 or 3 cities in one sweep, and then turtle in. Extort for techs, rinse and repeat.

--

Roster
-- GreyFox == On Deck ...
-- namliaM == Earned his worth with the WorldBuilder
-- armstrong == Released the Save
-- eektor == Got us Axes
-- Cosmichail == Geting Ready to Arm Phasers Axes

 

[armstrong]

When fighting against archers, don't trust the combat odds since it does not take into aco**** first strikes when presenting the % odds (although its does show the first strike text). My personal rule of tumb is always to deduct 20% of the combat odds before deciding whether is it a good fight (eg if combat odds show 60%, take away 20% of 60% = 12%, so the actual odds I estimate will be 48%).

Supposedly, in 1.61 patch, it does take first strikes into account. That being said, my gut instinct is that it's still not quite right, but people who've gone through the code disagree. In general, though, you shouldn't attack a city unless you have enough to take it. If you attack with 3, and assume you're going to lose one, you're just promoting an archer...

I am inclined to ignore the barb city (its size 1 anyway right now, so it will autoraze), and start whipping axemen ... a group of 8 axemen would take one city alright, but consider the retaliation ... can we survive it? We have to cripple Khan beyond recovery.

IMHO, I think we need 2 groups of 5 axemans, and we need archery. We strike fast, take out 2 or 3 cities in one sweep, and then turtle in. Extort for techs, rinse and repeat.

This is exactly what I was thinking. Ideally, one of those cities will be Karakorum if at all possible.

We need to do something about happiness. Monarchy is the logical choice, of course, but do we want to get it before or after Alphabet?

Also, we should see if there's anywhere (Paris?) we can run a couple of scientists in. Getting a big tech via GP research would let us trade for tons. I'm thinking of Philosophy in particular here - we can trade Alphabet, when we get it, for tech parity... and regain that parity with Philosophy.

As for a long term plan, I think our best bet would be to take out Khan, bribe JC to attack Cyrus, and then backstab JC, and roll over Cyrus. I don't know if that's even feasible with the current religious situation.

 

[namliaM]

10 Axe?? 10 !!!

I have taken a look at the save
Corney Hills has a library lined up (probably) to be whipped. Please make this a Granary... Why do we have an Irrigated plains in corney hills? We need some mines there.... not more irrigation ....

Paris is on stagnent... I think we dont want that, we have buildings to whip...

After pressing enter we have 4 axe with 3 beeing produced every 6 turns. That takes 12 turns before we attack KK... To long in my book....

 

[GreyFox]

Double whip is the key. Whip an axe at his last turn so that overflow hammers go into the next turn ... that will effectively means we get 2 axes in x+1 turns, where x is the normal number of turns needed to produce an axe without

Ofcourse one can always question why I picked the number 10 ... perhaps because I calculated that even with double-whipping it takes 10 turns to produce 10 axes and 2 archers so that it is ME who get to declare?

 

[armstrong]

Double whip is the key. Whip an axe at his last turn so that overflow hammers go into the next turn ... that will effectively means we get 2 axes in x+1 turns, where x is the normal number of turns needed to produce an axe without

Hmm... that's not how I normally think of "double " axers. I think of it as whipping one pop over happy cap+one (soon to be unhappy) pop for 60 hammers every 10 turns instead of 30 hammers every 10 turns, to maximize the whip...

 

[Mutineer]

Lurker comment.

Seens I am first who describe double axe whip I will report it again.

In shotr.
Turn 1 MM city so it put into axe less then 5 shields on normal speed (Different on slow, easier)
Turn 2 whipe axe for 2 population)
Turn 3 MM to get second axe this turn
Raise and repeat.
Can be done untill there only 2 happy left in city, getting you a fast army up.
Need granary to be efficient.

 

[armstrong]

Lurker comment.

Seens I am first who describe double axe whip I will report it again.

In shotr.
Turn 1 MM city so it put into axe less then 5 shields on normal speed (Different on slow, easier)
Turn 2 whipe axe for 2 population)
Turn 3 MM to get second axe this turn
Raise and repeat.
Can be done untill there only 2 happy left in city, getting you a fast army up.
Need granary to be efficient.

Thanks Mutineer, that's exactly what I was talking about (any maybe GreyFox too? ) Feel free to butt in with any advice, we (at least I) could use it

 

[GreyFox]

Heh heh, now with Muntineer as our advisor ... Team A is bound to lose!

 

[ChrTh]

Heh heh, now with Muntineer as our advisor ... Team A is bound to lose!

it's a pity you need outside help to survive this game

 

[Mutineer]

Hey, I did not do any help, I just explained terminology I invented.
I seems make it open to interpretation, bad of me, so I need to correct my mistake!