VQ06b - Emperor just win!

[GreyFox]

AFAICR, the elephants south of Karakorum are already pillaged.... unless there are other elephanst around.

And since we are running at -38gpt with 115, we can only susbtain 100% research for 3 turns. Thereafter we need to drop back to 30%. So, alpha may not come in in 5 turns, but possibly longer ( I think is 7 turns), unless eektor can cook up 80 more gold to substain the research.

I would suggest removing the axe from the barb city (what the heck is he doing there anyway?) to within our border to save us 1 gpt. I would further suggest retreating our axes and swords that are currently in Mongolian land to (1) protect our cities and (2) reduce maintenance cost, since there is nothing to pillage (the closes thing to pillage are all 5 turns away), except the villages south of turfan and the sheep NE of beshbalik.

Don't know about Maths though ... I consider it my for going after Maths first before alphabet ... if there is something equivalent in terms of our need to maths for trade, then, yes, take that and research Maths on our own. Else, consider those beakers invested in Maths lost. We need Maths fast. Apart from KK, we are still the smallest (in size) civ around. We need to expand fast, and ideally we should be around 1.5 times the size of AI in order to match the Emperor advantages the AI enjoy in terms of prod and research.

--

 

[eektor]

Alphabet is in 5 at 80% research with 130 (-29) gpt.

Actually Armstrong you have it at 90% 115 (-29gpt)

And since we are running at -38gpt with 115, we can only susbtain 100% research for 3 turns.

Which one is right? From what I gathered 5 turns is required to finish up the Alphabet at 90% and 100%? If that's the case we might have it in 6 turns then. If I can lower the gpt just a little we could get 4 turns at 90% too, but I think we will still end up with Alphabet in 6 turns.

Good point GreyFox on bringing the troops back into our cultural boundaries to lower our cost. It is expensive keeping them outside our borders.

 

[armstrong]

Don't know about Maths though ... I consider it my for going after Maths first before alphabet ... if there is something equivalent in terms of our need to maths for trade, then, yes, take that and research Maths on our own. Else, consider those beakers invested in Maths lost.

I don't think those beakers are lost. I'm pretty sure the AI is aware of how many beakers you have left on a tech and trades appropriately - i.e., they'll give us Math on the cheap now They definitely do it for themselves, but I've noticed they will give up techs I've partially researched more readily.

 

[eektor]

After some micromanaging to make sure I get Alphabet asap, I click enter.

Lo and behold all that micromanagement failed because my gpt went down. A few cities grew and their extra citizen rebelled, so Alphabet was prolonged.

Finally on turn 7 520 AD Alphabet was discovered. I switch to Math and check the tech advisor.

KK has Horseback Riding and Metal Casting
Cyrus has neither of them
JC has Horseback Riding.

(Of course they had many more techs than us but with those I quickly developed a plan to trade our way back into the game.)

I contact KK for peace and some techs. He wouldn’t give me HR and MC. He wouldn’t give me MC. He wouldn’t give me HR. (There goes my plan.) I finally was able to get Masonry and Polytheism from him for peace.

Later I contact Cyrus. I traded Alphabet for Hunting, Meditation, Math, and 10 gold.

I switch my research to Archery since I really think we could use some kind of defense.

On turn 10 580 AD we discovered Archery and I switched to construction for catapults.

Some notes:
Feel free to change the research to whatever. Everyone has construction now but we will need it for our next war against KK.

Might want to build some Archers in some of our cities.

Spices and Gold are connected.

We are at -3 gpt at 40% science rate.

Here are some pretty pictures of our empire … well ok small kingdom.







Here's the spoiler (It's working again ):

Spoiler :

Turn 129 (350 AD)
Copper City grows: 4
Old Sarai grows: 3
Okinawa's borders expand

Turn 130 (375 AD)

Turn 131 (400 AD)

Turn 132 (425 AD)

Turn 133 (450 AD)
Okinawa grows: 2
Axeman defeats (1.40/5): Mongolian Keshik

Turn 134 (475 AD)
Turfan begins: Library
Paris finishes: Swordsman
Old Sarai grows: 4
Beshbalik grows: 3
Axeman defeats (2.30/5): Mongolian Keshik

Turn 135 (500 AD)
Paris begins: Lighthouse

Turn 136 (520 AD)
Research begun: Mathematics
Research begun: Archery

Turn 137 (540 AD)
Beshbalik finishes: Barracks

Turn 138 (560 AD)
Beshbalik begins: Granary
Corney Hills grows: 5

Turn 139 (580 AD)
Research begun: Construction

 

[Cosmichail]

Roster
-- GreyFox == on deck == event horizon
-- namliaM == delegating
-- armstrong == keeping up with all his SG's
-- eektor == finished 2nd set -- OoP: 2006.06.21~30
-- Cosmichail == UP for 2nd set

I got it and hope nobody else catches it..... haaachoooo

 

[GreyFox]

Still no religion!? Fine, so be it. If the Gods don't wanna come to us, then we rear Them in. Time to take the remaining 3 southern mongolian cities and nab us buddhism

Too bad on the tradings, but those are nice ideas

Good luck, the Dark One. Bring us some felines ...

--

 

[armstrong]

Yeah, things look okay. We need to rebuild our military, and need some spearmen for the Keshiks & Elephants, and some cats once we get construction. If target Karakorum early, not only will we be able to get Buddhism, we can get the ivory for our own phants. Praetorians aren't so scary if we have a few !melee elephants.

Buddhism + Ivory = even more happiness, too.

After Construction, I think we really need to go Code of Laws for Courthouses, but that's probably not good tradebait... I don't see us with any kind of economy with 10-11 cities & no courthouses...

Our cities are starting to grow, just in time to be whipped for a new army I guess. Poor Frenchmen (and former Mongolians!)

 

[Cosmichail]

Turn 0

Asked Cyrus for Priesthood and he obliged (that’s a first)
JC doesn’t have nothing, OS grow in 3 turns to work gold

Turn 1

OK finally Buddhism spreads to Beshbalik accept of course +1 happiness.
1 turn anarchy. Move wkr to build farm near CH. Wkr start mine near Okinawa. Move worker to build mine at Turfan

Turn 2

wkr start farm at CH. Look what we have here a “Praet”. Wkr start mine at Turfan

Turn 3

Research down to 30%, CH start spear finish axe.

Turn 4

move warrior/boat to scout. CH/Paris grow another citizen both work cottages. Science back at 40%

Turn 5

KK wants Alphabet for 100 gold forget it…just will give him advantage.
Paris finish lighthouse start spear +1gpt now.
Units not killing us in cost, City maintenance is we need COL should research next!!!! Move worker to Paris for cottage.

Turn 6

Worker finish mine at Turfan, move citizen to mine. Wkr start cottage on jungle.
Move another worker to Paris for cottage.

Turn 7

Paris finish spear start work boat for fish to trade. CH finish spear start walls will have growth one unhappy, whip citizen when 1 pop is available. Besh finish granary start Buddhist monastery. Cyrus not in giving mood anymore. +5 JC +4 KK-5 (ouch)

Turn 8

We meet Monty nothing to trade. Wkr to chop (outside of BFC) for Besh BM/BT. Wkr move from Okinawa to Paris for cottage

Turn 9

CC builds library start archer for defense. Whip walls in CH as +1 over happiness.

Turn 10

Paris grows max happiness hire scientist. Paris builds work boat start archer. Ch finishes walls start spear. Okinawa finishes Lh start granary…..


GP points +3 in Paris with scientist. Construction due in 3 turns now. -2 gpt but perhaps selling fish might alleviate that. We need COL 13 turns at current research. 7 turns to GP in Beshabelik need Monotheism out of the way for theology. JC doesn't have fish maybe switch with deer or sell it if JC has gpt to offer.

Oh here is the save (almost hijacked it D'OH)

 

[Cosmichail]

Roster
-- GreyFox == UP == upset with gods
-- namliaM == on deck == Judge and jury
-- armstrong == probably warring again soon
-- eektor == skip-- OoP: 2006.06.21~30
-- Cosmichail == finished 2nd set

 

[GreyFox]

Wow, that's fast. One more turnset done .. we're winning Team B (in terms of speed) head over toes.

Okay, Monty seems not to have any religion, perhaps get him on our side? ... good idea on wasting GP for theology, has Christainity been founded? If not, i may want to get Monothesim out of the way for that.

Construction is coming in ... ... time for me to return the favour and build us some army so that the namliaM may perhaps get to hit the Mongols once again. This timeround, we need a mix of cats, spears, and axes/swords. A true combined arms approach.


--

 

[Cosmichail]

Wow, that's fast. One more turnset done .. we're winning Team B (in terms of speed) head over toes

GO TEAM B GO

Greyfox, I was also thinking with theology maybe can do some trading again too. So what do you think stick it out and get monotheism first then COL. I kept bugging Cyrus for it but he didn't want to be a good buddhist and help us. ARGH

EDIT: I don't think Christianity has been founded but I could be mistaken. 2nd edit Just checked and it has been founded.

 

[namliaM]

AI are not so happy about giving up Military techs... I wouldnt have expected KK to give up HBR (HR = Hereditairy rule)

From the techtrade screen (posted by Eektor) it doesnt look like I can see CoL there.... We need it bad and would have been a nice trading chip...

I dont think we can start another military campaign before we get CoL... The cost would simply get to great... Which is another reason I would pick CoL over Construction. While researching Construction (or trading for it) we could be building Courthouses to support our up and comming conquest...

We must be carefull now with fighting for we will get the - for "fighting our brothers and sisters of the fait"
IIRC Cyrus founded Buddism. Any idea if he has the shrine yet? Do we wait for buddism to autospread to the rest of our kingdom (saving the hamers on Missionaries) or do we actively spread it? Maybe we wait for some nice AI to spread it for us?
Yay we are buddist.

 

[armstrong]

Okay, looking at the save - sheesh, we're backwards That's the breaks at emperor, though, I guess.

We have a GP coming in 7 turns. At our current tech rate, we could research Monotheism is 4 turns (after Construction finishes in 3) and use the GP to discover Theology. It's an useful religious civic for our upcoming warmongering and hopefully might be some decent trade bait, though given the research rate of the AI's they probably have it... Christianity was founded in 300 BC! However, no one we've met is running Theocracy yet.

We could unhire the scientist in Paris and hire two in Beshbalik. That would speed up our second GP. If we discovered either Philosphy with the resulting scientist or maybe a GP for the bulk of Divine Right, that should give us a trading tech, too. Next emperor game, I'm hiring two scientists early on.

Bolded, because I think this could be critical:

If my eyesight isn't deceiving me, I don't think Monty has either Monotheism or Construction yet! We could really work some trades with him if we grab Theology with our Prophet. I think this is the way to go

We need to get Monarchy at some point - getting our wines working would be nice and it'd be +2 happy in all of our cities, but we should be able to trade Monty for it.

Khan still has archers, so he doesn't have Feudalism yet, but he has Monarchy. Also, he's got War Elephants. Disabling that ivory early is going to be key.

We can temporalily sell our wheat to JC for 5 gpt. It's a bit of a raw deal on our part, but we don't need it for healthiness until we get more happiness from Monarchy/the Second Mongolian War, so I don't see the problem.

JC will declare on Cyrus if we can get a tech to whet his appetite. As Cyrus is the current supreme global leader, it might be worth blowing Theology for that (though I doubt we can pull it off.)

 

[GreyFox]

I dont think we can start another military campaign before we get CoL... The cost would simply get to great... Which is another reason I would pick CoL over Construction. While researching Construction (or trading for it) we could be building Courthouses to support our up and comming conquest...

It can go the other way round ... we could be building cats while learning CoL ... what's use of courthouses if there is no city to build it? Plus construction is already due in 3 turns ... not too smart to start changing again.

We must be carefull now with fighting for we will get the - for "fighting our brothers and sisters of the fait"

Screw that, there is not a **** we can do abt that except not going to war. Can we afford not to?

IIRC Cyrus founded Buddism. Any idea if he has the shrine yet? Do we wait for buddism to autospread to the rest of our kingdom (saving the hamers on Missionaries) or do we actively spread it? Maybe we wait for some nice AI to spread it for us?
Yay we are buddist.

Cyrus did found Buddhism (the star in the buddha's icon besides Cyrus' name). I think we let it spread on its own if we are going the warring route. As you pointed out yourself, there is the problem of fighting sis & bro of our faith.

I may still want to get Theology for trading purposes (meaning getting Monothesim out of the way), depending on who discovered it ... if it is an unknown Civ, then it is still worthwhile to get Theology.

--

 

[armstrong]

Edit: I missed where Greyfox had also said to use the GP for Theology... it looks like we're on to the same thing here , but he got there first!

I dont think we can start another military campaign before we get CoL... The cost would simply get to great... Which is another reason I would pick CoL over Construction. While researching Construction (or trading for it) we could be building Courthouses to support our up and comming conquest...

Well, I just think we're going to have to Realistically, we can take a few Mongolian cities (Karakorum, Tabriz, New Sarai?) and hopefully not be done to 0% science. We just need to make sure we enough money to sustain the research to finish CoL.

I like the tech path I posted about above (Construction->Monotheism->Code of Laws, using the Prophet to found Theology.) We might even be able to trade Theology for CoL, but if not we can get at least Monarchy+Currency via that route. Those two wines alone will be 8 or so commerce, enough to hold another city, not to mention more happiness to work more cottages/coast. New Sarai and Tabriz are coastal, so they can bring in some commerce to pay their own way right off the bat.

Do we wait for buddism to autospread to the rest of our kingdom (saving the hamers on Missionaries) or do we actively spread it? Maybe we wait for some nice AI to spread it for us?

Let's let natural spread take it's course. Everything will turn Buddhist eventually, and now that it's in our cities it should go quickly.

I noticed JC has a swordsmen, two elephants, a longbowmen, and 3 horse archers in our lands near our gold mine. He's not planning any wars, but he's got to be putting them there for some reason... maybe just an expeditionary force for Cumae?

 

[Cosmichail]

I missed where Greyfox had also said to use the GP for Theology... it looks like we're on to the same thing here , but he got there first!

I suggested that at the end of my turn.....

But it doesn't matter who says what first, what matters we play as a team RIGHT???

JC is just heading to barb city so if we want that, we should take it now.
We have 3 spears with a fourth on the way. I don't think Besh can support specialist just yet but not sure about that. Paris is at happy limit and scientist makes a big difference in research.

We will have an extra fish to trade to which JC does not have. (wb ready to work in next turn) Do we want JC near us with two cities???

Keep bugging Cyrus for Monotheism as he gifted Priesthood to us.

I understand NamliaM's concerns but we need to maximize techs and construction was already started and losing any more beakers hurts us.

Had we not gotten masonry we might have used GP for CS. D'OH....(but COL has to be discovered first of course.....EDIT)
CS would have really boosted us so I personally avoid masonry unless I have stone/marble. With aggressive theology will be powerful against our enemies indeed and help with trades.

As to buddhism a Buddhist monastery is due in 2 turns in Beshbalik with a worker chopping for temple but that can be changed for something else. I think as we go along should dispatch missionaries to unhappy cities since just to have the religion (not temple) will add +1 happiness.

Whereever we choose to get GP's, National Epic should be considered too, but we still need Lit for that and I think JC has it. So bye bye GL although I never expected to build any wonders anyways.


impressive, most impressive........

 

[armstrong]

I suggested that at the end of my turn.....

But it doesn't matter who says what first, what matters we play as a team RIGHT???

Exactly... the "getting there first" was meant to be a joke

JC is just heading to barb city so if we want that, we should take it now. We have 3 spears with a fourth on the way. I don't think Besh can support specialist just yet but not sure about that. Paris is at happy limit and scientist makes a big difference in research.

We will have an extra fish to trade to which JC does not have. (wb ready to work in next turn) Do we want JC near us with two cities???

Those two cities aren't too good on their own IIRC - they share a deer food source. I doubt they'll amount to much culturally. Still, it's not necessarily a bad idea if the odds are okay. Karakorum's a more important prize, though, I think.

Keep bugging Cyrus for Monotheism as he gifted Priesthood to us.

I haven't seen anything technical about it, but my feeling is is that there's a hard cap on getting gifts from other AI's - like a "WFYABTA" thing. It's worth a shot, though, since there's no loss

I understand NamliaM's concerns but we need to maximize techs and construction was already started and losing any more beakers hurts us.

I agree completely.

Had we not gotten masonry we might have used GP for CS. D'OH....
CS would have really boosted us so I personally avoid masonry unless I have stone/marble. With aggressive theology will be powerful against our enemies indeed and help with trades.

Yes, except, doesn't Construction require Masonry?

As to buddhism a Buddhist monastery is due in 2 turns in Beshbalik with a worker chopping for temple but that can be changed for something else. I think as we go along should dispatch missionaries to unhappy cities since just to have the religion (not temple) will add +1 happiness.

Would Besh's hammers be better used on cats instead of missionaries? It's only a matter of time before Buddhism spreads now that we have it in our cities.

Whereever we choose to get GP's, National Epic should be considered too, but we still need Lit for that and I think JC has it. So bye bye GL although I never expected to build any wonders anyways.

Most likely. We can capture 'em, though. :hugs the 'Henge: We should really focus a moment on where we want to breed our great ones. I'm thinking Beshbalik. Here are it's plusses:

1. It's already started on a GP, and has a library to instantly start running specialists now
2. It's getting it's pitiful GP points from the 'henge, but it's better not to waste them.
3. It has 3 food resources once we raze Tabriz.
4. It has a lake nearby for a water source, and a good amount of grass plains.
5. It has no river, so it wouldn't be a "monster" commerce town, and it has only 1 hill & copper mine, so it's not a big production town either.
6. It's coastal, so it can build harbors for health

On the negative side:

1. It has 3 coast tiles that aren't useful in a GPF.
2. It has some developed cottages.

But other than that, I like it

Speaking of razing Tabriz, after looking at the map, I think Tabriz isn't worth keeping. I think good war objectives are Karakorum + New Sarai + raze Tabriz.

 

[Cosmichail]

Those two cities aren't too good on their own IIRC - they share a deer food source

They aren't even razing barb to stop JC from taking it. But he might settle there later.

Yes, except, doesn't Construction require Masonry

No, Masonry is a prerequisite for Monotheism. Construction requires
writing==math

Would Besh's hammers be better used on cats instead of missionaries?

Yes, except if we have unhappy city we could just build a missionary to alleviate that. We could whip too of course but I notice this has a negative effect on science for working tiles.

Most likely. We can capture 'em, though. :hugs the 'Henge

That's the whole idea, and me hugs henge too...

For beshbalik CS would be nice for cross irrigation but plains only yield 2 food and I found for that extra help you need 3-4f tiles. I didn't look but are they available to besh? I noticed the deer there, and of course the lake is a 3 food source (with lighthouse??). So what is that about 9 so we could probably support once maxed out 2-3 specialist. Then there's the pain with polluting the genepool. Either way if we up GP points up with Nat Epic we will be able to get some good techs for trade. Only cottage on plains will have to go to make that happen. (not all but some with cross irrigation)
Again Nat Epic pollutes the genepool again but with 100% increase in birthrate it just has to go into GP city.

 

[armstrong]

Yes, except if we have unhappy city we could just build a missionary to alleviate that. We could whip too of course but I notice this has a negative effect on science for working tiles.

Interesting...we could use the +1 happy to whip out a one and a half cats somewhere, so the hammers could be worth it... assuming, as you said, it won't hurt our cottage use too badly.

For beshbalik CS would be nice for cross irrigation but plains only yield 2 food and I found for that extra help you need 3-4f tiles. I didn't look but are they available to besh? I noticed the deer there, and of course the lake is a 3 food source (with lighthouse??). So what is that about 9 so we could probably support once maxed out 2-3 specialist. Then there's the pain with polluting the genepool. Either way if we up GP points up with Nat Epic we will be able to get some good techs for trade. Only cottage on plains will have to go to make that happen. (not all but some with cross irrigation)

Besh has plains sheep (2 food, but Khan has 'em atm), deer (2 food), irrigated corn (4 food) and the city square (2 food) so that's 5 specialists at size 8 once Tabriz burns. It has at least one grass plain to farm pre-CS, so with lake+lighthouse that's 6 specialists at size 11. It's not the best GP town, but I think it's the best we've got right now unless we want to farm over our flood plain cottages...

If we trade Theology for Currency, we can run 2 scientists+2 merchants there at size 6 (corn+deer/sheep) once we build a Market.

Oh, and I think you're absolutely right about skipping Masonry for CS. Even though Construction does require it (I checked! Math+Masonry ) if we would have self-researched CoL and then used the GP for CS, we could have traded it for tech parity & gotten Construction once we had researched Masonry... too bad we didn't notice it until now Hopefully we can get some good trades from Theo, at least.

 

[Cosmichail]

Even though Construction does require it (I checked! Math+Masonry

You're right I stand corrected. The tech tree I looked at wasn't that clear, so I went into the game and could see the masonry symbol on construction. But again we could have easily traded for it with CS. I also forgot about that corn farm so in a sense it is better than Paris. Razing Tabriz is prudent to get sheep and we will have a good GP city. That will give us the edge we need so a good plan indeed Armstrong.

When we get good GP points going and get a second GP (which might not happen if we run scientist, but if we do we could use him for CS, after COL is researched) COL is important as our maintenance is through the roof right now. 26 gpt and units are only 7 gpt. But I am glad to have construction so "General Patton Greyfox" can go for it again. He started the last campaign and acquired Beshbalik which got us the Stonehenge. We are already on our way to a good army and personally I would like to take out JC too. Cyrus right now is a good friend and quite willing to trade. Monty too could be good if he joins in as Buddhist. Where is he though??

Boy I want to do some fighting, Karakorum I think should be first for elephants so we can stand up JC should he attack since he is "pleased" with KK. JC is "cautious" to Cyrus. Cyrus could prove to be an ally at some point and of course then we backstab him.. MOHAAAAAAA (evil laugh)