Wages of Sin feedback

I killed basium pretty easy with sheaim. I threw a couple of pyre zombies on him and ringed fired him and last i killed him with rosier. He nailed up on a hill next to my cap.
I don't think killing him was as much the issue as how much it weakens the Mercureans when you do so. I never really have a problem killing him it just creates a power vacuum because he equals like half the Merureans power sometimes... :/
 
It took me 100 turns to realize I hadn't converted to Empyrean as the Malakim. I kept wondering if there was an event that triggered to bring Chalid into play, until I looked at my religion screen. :blush:

Damn, I didn't realize I hadn't converted to Empyrean until I saw your post. :blush:
 
Feast is a Calabim only ability for Vampires since .40. Vampires belonging to other civs do not have access to Feast.

I think this is a shame. If a player of another civ is resourseful enough to capture a Vampire with command or the Elohim capture a Calabim city and build some Vampires that they should have the full use of the feast ability.
 
I agree with a number of the posts that say that this scenario was unfocused. I played as the Malakim to continue the storyline from the previous scenario. In the entire game, I don't think I ever had a unit on the west half of the map. I slow played a builder style game at the beginning and stayed in my own territory. Once the AI finished off the Sheiam, I thought that I better get involved in the war (about turn 200 or so) and invaded the nearby Calabim lands. They were pushovers dying from by Decius (Ranger) unit and Baron Drun von halfmoon. I attached Decius to a Hunder and he eventually ended up as a super human Beastmaster who could kill four enemies per turn. The last 20-30 turns of the game consisted of Decius (Beastmaster) and Chalid using their Commando promo to walk up to a Svart city, cast Pillar of Flames and then decimate all the defenders inside who had lost 60%+ of their hp to the spell. The only challenge was a logistical delay in getting 1-2 troops to the captured cities for defense so that my two heroes could continue on to the next city.

I would recommend starting the Malakim closer to the action in the middle of the map. Leave the desert section in the southeast unoccupied and give them a quest to found a desert city (like the Religious Mountain quest in BTS) that will have some bonus given upon completion. As it is now, the inclanation on the good side is to continue to play as the Malakim from the previous scenario and they are just not in the thick of the plot on the currently designed map.
 
Cosmetic Bug: The formatting on the Scenario Screen is out. There are several line breaks where they shouldn't be, and no line breaks where they should be.
 
I think this is a shame. If a player of another civ is resourseful enough to capture a Vampire with command or the Elohim capture a Calabim city and build some Vampires that they should have the full use of the feast ability.

I disagree, I see this as an exploit used to be the best part of the Calabim while at the same time using the strengths of another team as well. Why play as the Calabim if you can just steal or build their best unit as another civ?
 
I disagree, I see this as an exploit used to be the best part of the Calabim while at the same time using the strengths of another team as well. Why play as the Calabim if you can just steal or build their best unit as another civ?
Why not disable the stealing of any unique unit with Command? Why not disable the Command ability all together then?

All civs have unique units that make them fun to play, but only the Calabim unique unit is watered down if captured by another civ. Heck...I can even capture national heroes that are fully functional, but a mere Champion replacement is nerfed for some reason. If the vampire is deemed too powerful to allow another civ to capture than maybe it is unbalanced and needs to be nerfed. If it is not unbalanced then there is absolutely positively NO reason why other civs should not be able to control one with full functionality.

I have successfully captured Alazkan the Assassin and Govannon in past games.
 
Why not disable the stealing of any unique unit with Command? Why not disable the Command ability all together then?

All civs have unique units that make them fun to play, but only the Calabim unique unit is watered down if captured by another civ. Heck...I can even capture national heroes that are fully functional, but a mere Champion replacement is nerfed for some reason. If the vampire is deemed too powerful to allow another civ to capture than maybe it is unbalanced and needs to be nerfed. If it is not unbalanced then there is absolutely positively NO reason why other civs should not be able to control one with full functionality.

There's one big difference in that if you gain control of any other unique unit, you have one unique unit (and even if it's a hero, it probably won't change everything). If you capture a Vampire, all your level 6 units can suddenly gain Vampirism (which already has several big advantages including +10% Strength). If all these could feast, you would basically have a Calabim+X army (where X is the civ you play right now), making playing Calabim basically obsolete. I don't think that makes a lot of sense, balance-wise, and I guess that's why it's not, in fact, allowed.
An alternative, of course, would be allowing Feast while making gifting Vampirism require Calabim, but I prefer the way it is right now.
 
I would prefer feast to be enabled and gift vampirism to be disabled if one of them has to be nerfed. This makes more sense because a vampire should be more likely to continue to feast and not share the secret with another civ than to all of the sudden stop feasting.

Really, both abilities should be given full functionality. If Vampires are unbalanced, then they are unbalanced whether playing as the Calabim or another civ and capturing them. If Vapires are overpowered then they should be nerfed accross the board. If not, then the ability to feast should be allowed if they are captured.

Perhaps a fix would be to make feasting give a negative diplo modifier: "you feast on the living." The diplo hit could be greater for good civs than evil civs and could increase the more you use the ability. Another fix would be to make the unhappiness from feasting more severe or even permanent for non Calabim civs so that there is a down side to using the ability of the captured unit.
 
Spoiler: The text when taking out the second rival, playing Calabim, ends efter a comma. Either you'll want to finish whatever it's supposed to read or change that to a dot.

Also, removing the Orb event seems like a good idea; having 100 starting gold and a Supplies that can build a library means that you can induce the event really early on and get a 3k beaker tech (Warbows or CoS, I believe, as Calabim).

Valin's entry pops up every time he is built, not just the first (Basium created him, went Empyrean (should not happen imo), later Einon built him and the message displayed again).

All as of .40s

Good scenario otherwise... Now I only need to either cut my way thru a horde of angels or a really dense forests... Choices, choices...

And a final suggestion: Tune Blight down please, it comes so early and 20 :yuck: killed my 3 core cities to size 1 stagnant, my research and production completely withered away. I would appreciate if Stephanos didn't enter the game that early aswell, but I suspect that is on purpose... :sad:
 
It looks like my experience was different from everyone else's. I got crushed as the Malakim. My 'allies' did little to help. I did take out the Calabim but finally got crushed by the Infernals and especially the Svartalfar.

Best wishes,

Breunor
 
I started the first game as the Sheaim, on immortal:

* The GE didn't get pushed out, it just took him 3 turns to walk to my city and pop a wonder.

* Basium arrived promptly and kicked my ass by turn 30.

Second try, Calabim on immortal:

* Everybody popped their world spells on turn 1. Smart for Ethne, stupid for the Ljos.

* I won the game after 150 turns by wiping out Ethne, then Basium, then Varn.

* The first two vampires wiped out around 10 Elohim and Mercurian cities almost by themselves. As soon as I built one adept to build two death nodes and cast blur on the 5 str. spectres and one ranger with shock to defend against angels, I basically marched through the entire map taking a city every 2 turns or so.

* I like that the Mercs are stronger than either Varn or Ethne, it makes for a nice dilemma whether you go for them first or take out somebody else and give them free angels.

* Basium got killed pretty early by the Sheaim, but he did take some of their cities. Maybe that's why it was easy for me.

* I was in PA with Faeryl, Ethne was with Basium and Varn with the Ljos. Ossy-G offered to become my vassal, which was a pretty pointless thing to do (permanent war and all) and prevented her from PAing with Hybo. Overall, I really liked the PAs and think they added a lot of flavour. I also had Faeryl help me a lot in the desert, I hope she won't get jealous of Thalia.

* Speaking of Thalia, the text after defeating the second enemy does indeed cut off just as Decius is about to get himself some sweet lovin'. Please finish the text and let the poor guy have some fun.

* The barbs were much more of a threat for me than anybody else. Varn sent at most two rathas + two swordsmen even though I left him alone for 100 turns. The Ljos played defensive and didn't even launch one serious attack on Faeryl. I never saw either Chalid or a tier 4 unit, not even champions for Varn.

* Stephanos, however, took out my best three cities within 10 turns. I didn't mind because I won the game with the 4 units, but he is a game-breaker beacuse you can get to AC 40 in 40 turns if you spread AV and raze Ethne's cities. In a normal game, AC 40 requires AV being founded, Hybo summoned and some massive wars. It really can't be done in under 250-300 turns, by which time most civs have some large armies, well developed cites, and a hero or two. In this scenario, nobody has the time to develop an empire and build enough units capable of standing up to him. Blight also took all my cities down to pop 1. Yet, Hybo didn't do anything useful throughout the game even though it got to AC 49 by the end.

* A plan to win on deity in under 50 turns: switch to conquest and rush out moroi and AV disciples without growing your cities beyond size 3. Spam farms and workshops, no cottages. Raze a couple of barb cities and spread AV everywhere, you should hit blight before long. As soon as that happens, throw your two vamps and any morois you have at Varn, even if you lose them. Razing three of his cities should help nudge AC beyond 40. If Stephanos spawns between Basium and Ethne, you've won the game even if you've done on research, have 3 size 1 cities and two longbowmen in your empire.

* Just a little note about the story: You've spent two scenarios drinking the blood of Malakim women and children, making deals with every devil and demon you could find for no purpose other than personal gain and you're switching between CoE and AV for fun. And Thalia becomes your sweetheart just because you stopped a vamp from drinking her? Damn, it must be the aftershave.

All in all, a very nice scenario, albeit with some balance issues (enemies either way too strong or way too weak, Stephanos is completely unstoppable if he kicks in).
 
Wages of Sin Write-up

Mild Spoilers

I’m labeling this section with ‘mild’ spoilers because there aren’t any scenario specific surprise type ideas here; they really are all strategy type.

I replayed as Decius of the Malakim after losing badly to a Svartalfar attack my first game. After losing, I compared notes with my son as usual, who not surprisingly found the scenario rather easy. He used the ‘traditional’ Malakim strategy of going for great priests, building Altar parts, getting the desert shrine, apprenticeship, and churning out killer disciple units. Of course he got Chalid and just smashed everything.

I like this strategy for Varn, who is spiritual, and obviously it can work for Decius. But I wanted to play differently as Decius, using his Raiders ability more prominently. Clearly, my son’s strategy can work, but we agreed it isn’t the difference between victory and defeat (at least at our level).

Strategy and Scenario

One of the reason I like scenarios is that they provide challenges not seen in the ‘Epic’ game. I haven’t played a lot of advanced starts and I don’t usually play on large maps. But I think the most important difference is that large maps usually have many more players. In Wages of Sin, there is a lot of area, there is little water, and not many players. So strategy should accommodate. The first time I played I think I lost right at the start – when I saw the forces around (a few that I lost) in the first turns, I actually overbuilt some military and I didn’t use my allies. In addition, this scenario starts with the Infernals and the Mercurians on the board, which is a big change from the Epic game. With them on the board, not only are they strong, but they serves as the ultimate ‘Rubber band’ mechanic – kill baddies, and Hyborem gets stronger. Lose a lot of units and Basium gets stronger. Finally, the strategy is dominated by your position. You have very powerful allies, but they are on the opposite side of the board. You can be in trouble in the baddies gang up on you before your Allies can help. It is important to give directions to them, they usually listen to you to some degree.

Your first choices are decisions on using your supplies. I decided to get one of the two ‘builder’ options (library or Temple of Empyrean) and one military building (hunting lodge or training yard). I went for the Temple of Empyrean since I would want to spread the religion and I went for the hunting lodge since the board was big and I thought speed would be important.

My view is to attach Decius to a unit and try to stick with it, try to get to level 6 to build Form of the Titan as long as you have copper (which seems be rather prevalent). It ended up taking 13 turns to build and probably added a few hundred experience points in my second game.

So, with a large map, practically no water, and few players, what do you do? I tried to stick to a rule – only build settlers, workers, and troops early! With already built cities and expansion, I went for 2 workers/city and it still may not have been enough.

After a time using this strategy, I built ‘special’ buildings or wonders; I stopped to get Form of the Titan and then built the Ale house since I was in dire need of happiness.

In my second game, I got marble and stopped to build the Epics which were very useful, especially Heroic Epic. Later I got the three libraries and build the Great Library out in my city to the south (that starts on the board) which was a bit away from the action. I probably wouldn’t have bothered with TGL if I didn’t have marble.

Generally, I found following the river west gave me good cities, but going north or south gave resources. You do not start with a lot of good happiness resources so these can become a priority. Obviously get copper. Remember that the Malakim don’t need horses for the camel archers but these are abundant anyway.

Clearly you want to get religious law first and get Chalid, use the Empyrean strategy of having Chalid kill everything in his path. I went for priesthood, alteration, mathematics and engineering, got the Guild of Hammers. The guild of hammers is a great wonder when there are a lot of cities and the extra movement point on the roads is terrific.

Overall Strategy

Spoilers

Generally I had one city get a mage guild and build adepts. I had two mana sources in my territory. I build enchantment mana with the first since I really like enchanted blade and I badly needed the happiness. The second was body mana for the obvious reasons, I wasn’t planning on using catapults and haste can dramatically increase speed while regeneration is a very nice spell. I was correct that there would be little use worrying about level 3 spells, the game would be decided before they were available.

In both of the games, I found that the Svartalfar were the most powerful enemy in the north. The Calabim were weak and in the south. I rarely even interacted with the Sheam, who seemed to be in the opposite situation as I was surrounded by the good guys amd were a non-entity in both games. Finally, Hyborem was pretty much in the center.

In both games, the key was to fight the two front war successfully. I wanted to conquer Flauros and the Calabim to the south to grab a bunch of nice cities, but I have to worry about the Svartalfar expansion. The general technique is pretty easy, have Chalid blast the defenders down, have him kill anything that is hard, and mop up. With the raiders ability you can move very quickly through the enemy and plunder for money with camel raiders if necessary. I got lots of gold this way.

I had one city churn out adepts almost every time it wasn’t building infrastructure. I had mages to sanctify, haste, and cast enchanted blade. All adepts got scorch for free; this wasn’t particularly useful although I did use the scorch/sand lion trick a few times. Of course I wanted to get mages so I build adepts early. When I was defending against Hyborem, I had three mages with destroy undead. Another city had stables and churned out camel archers. A third city built archers/longbowmen. I stayed on god-king pretty much the whole game and my capital was a monster, building the ‘swing’ type of unit I needed – a Malakim capital with lots of flood plains is pretty awesome and with the ale house, bizarre of Memnon, a money changer, and a tax collector and the money from raiding, I was ahead on tech the whole game.

Chalid is so strong that taking cities is rather easy, but holding them is harder. It may actually be easier to win by burning the cities but I didn’t want the AC to rise so I held them, with the need to garrisoning them being my scarcest resource. This idea may have been a mistake since Basium took the AV holy city.

In both games, the critical step was campaigning in the South while holding the Svartalfar in the north. In my second game, my defending army in the north was far larger. In my first game, after capturing Flauros’ cities, I had Chalid in the south holding the Infernals at bay when I lost to a Svaltalfar army of 30 units conquering the north. With Nox Noctis they can strike hard and fast.

In my second game, the key strategy change was that I was going to take guard against the ‘main’ Svartalfar army before defeating Flauros and put most of my troops in the North. However, this didn’t work. The problem was Alakazan – he would come out, kill the top guy, and move out protected by Nox Noctis, I couldn’t do anything. Assassins would kill all weaker armies. I was losing a few guys a turn.

So Chalid went north, and there was a new strategy. I had to kill the main Svartalfar army and Alakazan before continuing with the conquest in the south. Ironically, it I probably easier to hold the south BEFORE defeating Flauros because Hyborem will find other people to fight and Flauros is weaker! Therefore, my view now is that the Svartalfar threat has to go.

Chalid and the Decisive Battle

The Svartalfar had nothing that could stand up to Cahlid. The critical battle was now Chalid against the main Svartalfar army. Chalid of course had Decius to get his XP’s up, the critical point getting to combat 5 and then up the drill line to get blitz. Any human would have defeated me – any human would throw his whole army away to defeat Chalid and I suspect they could have taken him down. But I marched Chalid out using my Raiders ability, if I took any losses I retreated back to my city. With Crown of Brilliance, pillar of flame, and his attacks, he took down the Svartalfar army a unit at a time. I finally got blitz and mobility for him and could take 3 guys down (sometimes retreating after losses.

I defended him with an escort of Rathas and had camel archers in reserve. The Rathas would go around him and cast blinding light to see if there was a stack ready to pounce on Chalid. If there was a message that 20 units were impacted by blinding light the Rathas would converge and I would send in the camel archers also.

This procedure/battle lasted probably about 30 turns. Eventually, the main army was whittled down. With about 7 units left, mostly adepts, Chalid killed Alakazan. Chalid now had over 200 XP’s and could just take down anything in his path. Later I traded to get Rage from Ethne the White – and I upgraded units to berserkers. A berserker with Alakazan’s mirror is quite tough; use it first on any city!

Aftermath

If this were a ‘normal’ game, I would be pretty sure I had won, and I pretty much had now. The difference of course was that killing so many Svartalfar made Hyborem a true monster. Fortunately, the Sheam had been long defeated and Basium, Arendal, and Ethne were fighting him. Even so Hyboren was beating up the Ljosalfar badly.

For me, I had defeated the Svartalfar so badly that I suspended the Calabim campaign and went on. I didn’t strategically like the way my border was getting larger and the lack of garrison troops was a bad problem. But I captured the Svaltalfar capital and with it Nox Noctis. This was another game changing event as now defending my own overextended kingdom was much easier – workers don’t’ have to be defended, they can’t come from nowhere, etc. After capturing the capital, I sent Chalid south and conquered the Calabim easily. Hyborem sent a medium sized army, but my mages casting destroy undead crushed them.

The Svartalfar sent one more army while Chalid was south, this was their last swan song. But now I was ready – they were a little stronger until Chalid showed up and mopped them up. With the destruction of their second army, defeating them further was simply a matter of logistics.

Of course, winning would now be routine. I had a much larger economy and production than anyone; I built Teutorix, gut arquebus’s. I probably could have defeated Hyborem but Basium was hitting him pretty hard and I figured the easiest way to win was to beat the Svartalfar. I got guilds to churn out engineers, got the Nexus. At this point then getting garrisons out to cities was easy. I mopped up the Svartalfar and won..

Conclusions – Spoilers

I had a lot of fun and did some new things. I do think this scenario has a lot of replay value – I can play other factions or even the Malakim again and try the ‘priest’ strategy. I clearly thought it was one of the best scenarios, probably because I did find it quite a challenge.

Regardless of how you build your army, I do think the key items are those laid out at the top. You are on a large map that is unsettled with Hyborem and Basium starting on the map. You have a powerful enemy in the north and want to conquer south. Handling these challenges is the key to victory.


Best wishes,

Breunor
 
I played as the sheaim, and Basium showed up at my door 14 turns into the game! No fun when he s wandering around outside my capital, killing a skeletion a turn... its a bit rediculious that he shows up to attack me so early...
 
Well after continuing, I eventually killed basium, and soon Hyborem offered me a permanent alliance. I have only kept my one city Galveholm, and the rest goes as an offering to hyborem. Armageedon counters at 70 now, and my diseased corpses are sweet (tower of necromancy woo)
 
Heh, I won this scenario as the Sheaim with the armegaddeon counter at 100. i killed the avatar with meshabber of dis with the staff of souls (he had 45 str at one point). Being allied with hyborem was great, my ritualists that died just turned into more power for him. But my dragon died when armageddon hit :-(. Didn't matter, by that point it was a beast of agares festival.
 
Played as the Malakim on Immortal level.

Fun scenario. For once the AI allies aren't that useless after all - Arendel kept Hyborem busy in the northwest, Basium wrecked Os-Gabella and left her barely alive, and Ethne took on Flauros with reasonable success. A few units help there was enough to finish the Calabim off.

As usual, if you're going to have Empyrean anyway, Religious Law is a beeline for Chalid. After Chalid hit the field with Rathas and Champions backing him up the Svarts were wiped out quickly, followed by the Sheaim. Armageddon never got very far, considering how quickly the Sheaim were reduced to a few cities and I put real effort in relentlessly hunting down the AV wherever it popped up in cities I controlled - or mostly, conquered.

Decius is pretty strong if you know how to use him well. Warring with Decius is mostly abusing your free Commando promotion, and getting a few units quickly to higher levels with the Decius GG. Then again I had it easy because only the Svartalfar were gunning for me and they weren't putting that much effort in it - the other enemy AI's got bogged down in other wars.
 
I've found that (with a few minor changes in ScenaroFunctions.py) this scenario makes a very good hotseat game, and is probably a good multilayer game in general. It really starts in medias res, which minimizes the pointless clicking early on.
 
Played as Calabim, on Emperor level. No bug's etc, all goodness! :goodjob:

With Basium in the large map from the outset, I efficiently went for the throat, before he got too powerful, and won the scenario by turn 149. Not a bad scenario, although it was a little easier than I initially thought. The Vamp's probably start as the weakest civ too.

Spoiler :
Advanced start-up again allow's you to just boost away and use your foothold to get into an early steamroll.

*embedded GM in capital
*used supplies for library & training yard in capital
*settled most cities around the lake next to you; due to random resource placement. I had no iron, only copper.
*only had 1 mana node. I knew I would only be using Vampire's and Ritualist's as my main troop's (the battle could be over long before I could get Mage's on tap) so I only made a single Adept and upgraded it to a Death node (just so my vamp's Spectre's get a bonus).
*adopted Godking/Nationhood/Slavery/Conquest/Undercouncil

With my starting troop's, I cleared the few enemy that start near you. Lightly defended my 3 starting cities and got into whip mode. Used Ranger's to quickly get Subdue Animal promo so I could get wolves den, dancing bears and War Elephant's from all the natural gift's running around. With the Slavery civic, I quickly got heap's of Slave's from the barb's. I just love this civic for rapid start-up's!

With the Malakim on my right and Elohim and Basium on my left, I immediately set out to destroy the Malakim to free up my eastern flank. I put my best starting troop's (Vampire with Decius attached etc.) on the ship and sailed it along the coast. You start with a Vampire and an Assassin on a Caravel up north. I dropped the unit's off on the Malakim coast and used the boat to make contact with the Svartalfar. You also start with a Moroi just north of the Malakim cities. I moved him away from the Hunter danger to link up with my forces as they later converged. Made sure my vamp's killed a couple of barbs en route to give them the summon Spectre. I caught the Malakim with only 3 lightly defended cities (eg.capital only had a Longbowman and an Archer). The Longbow's were tough, but the summoning Vamps, Assassin and fodder managed to just pull it off. There were a couple of key 60-70% do-or-die combat's that saw me through. Only a couple of now nicely promoted troop's survived and I had to raze everything as the maintenance would have sunk me. With the Malakim desert emptied, barbarian's took over the area and simply fed me with endless XP and slave unit's.

As I revealed the map, I regularly passed it on to Hybo, the Sheaim and Svarts to hopefully guide them to battle. I ended up being allied with the Svarts, but the other's never really cared about me. I just held against the Elohim while I built up; they just trickle fed unit's to me. Parking my ship outside their only coastal city made them spam Galley's etc.

I had to convert to AV to please my allies, but mainly for the Ritualist's. However, when the hell terrain spread to my land's, it shattered my economy. From here I just spammed Vampire's and Ritualist's from my 5 cities to push west into the 2 remaining civ's I had to eliminate.

When the AC very quickly hit 30, the blight hurt me really bad as the hell terrain had wiped my healthiness. Once it's effect's eased, I cast my World Spell and then just kept the pressure on and walked through the Elohim who just seemed to make mainly Longbow's and Monk's. Their Homeland promo was frustrating; the frequency of withdrawal (10% odds only!) made me think all their Longbow's and Monk's were all on horseback!!! They, like most of the other's, blew their World Spell's from the outset, so there was no respite. I don't know what the hell my allies were doing because it just seemed that I alone was taking the fight to the infidel's; getting little to no support. I noticed the allied Svart's were building fresh cities to extend an already overextended empire!? I was the main guy fighting and razing cities before the AC got totally out of control.

I laughed when I got a truly menacing pop-up informing me that Valin Phanuel is after my head on a platter. 2 turn's later he's dead from suiciding into a far off city!

Basium had quite a few cities to get through. But the Angel's, though tough, were never going to hold out against stack's of Vampire's and Ritualist's with summoned Spectre's and rings of flame; Assassin's nipping at the edges. This simple combo just steamrolled them quickly and efficiently without adding too many more Angel's to his already swollen rank's. Basium himself had long been slain. He had some Crusader's in his last cities, but it was just more of the same by that point.
I was very lucky I had moved quickly from the outset.....Stephanos had appeared in the desert and was galloping rapidly toward's my few cities! :eek:


I agree with the MC that this would make a good MP map.
 
Back
Top Bottom