Wal-mart asks its underpaid workers to donate food to other underpaid workers

I think intelligence does have a not insignificant factor owed to inheritance though. It wouldn't be smart to deny that since it is partly genetic.
Terx, an easy counter to you would be those born with severe cases of down-syndrome. Some people are born simply to not be as smart as others. Conditions aside, there are people simply that are much more talented than others. The potential born to different people widely varies and sometimes its not something that hard work can overcome. For instance, even if I trained my hardest all my life, I could not be the Basketball player LeBron James is.
 
Seriously, why shouldn't 'minimum wage' be able to afford a reasonable standard of living? I mean, maybe not today. Maybe not yesterday, but why not tomorrow? Is there some rule that states that people's lives actually should not improve as the whole of society gets richer? "A rising tide raises all boats" is really a rather reasonable social contract. I certainly don't mind it.

Good question. Some random thoughts.
1) Today's minimum wage probably does offer a fairly reasonable standard of living by yesterday's standards.
2) Technology is quickly making jobs low-skilled jobs obsolete (while most of the new jobs it creates require certain skills). At the same time, we are getting richer overall, so "reasonable" standard of life continues to rise. Won't that eventually result in a lot of people having skills low enough that no work is available to them? More precisely, that they are competitive with robots only if they are paid so little that they can't allow a "reasonable" standard of living?
3) In that case, shouldn't we institute minimum wages (and possibly create "artificial jobs", i.e. jobs that are not actually necessary) to allow them a certain standard of living? Because free market would simply have them starve, I suppose.
4) But on what principles should that standard be set? It should be high enough to eliminate worst social problems, yet low enough that people doing "actual" jobs wouldn't lose motivation...
5) And I am afraid that no matter how high one's incomes, somebody who does not manage to feel useful and productive, will always be unhappy with life.
 
@Archbob
Not everyone may be able to be like the smartest guy or best basketball player ever no matter how much they practice. Okay. That makes a lot of sense.
But to have a respectable mind, to have respectable skills and a respectable outlook on life - it in itself just isn't that much of a intellectual challenge. At least that is how it absolutely looks to me.
It may in practice become a challenge when I receive unfortunate environmental inputs - but genetic mutation like down-syndrome aside - if I look at the mental fabric one needs for those things, the level of focus and clarity, of putting 1 and 1 together, of memorizing things - it all truly seems so basic to me. Not a matter of can but of will. Not of ability but of circumstantial practice. I honestly can not imagine someone not being able to cope with them in principle other than for grave biological issues which would be very visible, like down-syndrome.
Lets get back to talent. Mozart, the "wonder child", practiced like crazy since he was 2 or something. I read a couple of articles on talent, and what all those exceeding in something share is that they practice like god damn hell. As said, not everyone doing that may be able to also be truly among the best, I can agree with that. But everyone will be pretty damn good IMO.
Look at it this way: the human mind rests on adapting to its environment. That is why the development of human civilization took such a long time to take off. The people lacked the necessary environmental stimulant and so stagnated for hundreds of millenniums before going off like a rocket in a couple of centuries. The same goes for the individual IMO.
 
I think you're considerably over-estimating the significance of IQ measurements.
Yeah, I'm aware that IQ metric has its flaws. Still does not change the rather obvious matter that some people are smarter than others. And that it can't be that heritability does not affect this. And since environmental effects are not random, but rather reinforce the effects of heritability...
I really can not wrap my head around the idea that some people are born to be sort of dumb.If anything, I'd say that good genes mean that some people have an easier time in becoming smart while others need more favorable conditions.
That is another way to put this, probably correct in majority of cases...
 
What is that supposed to mean? Examples?
It means that the wealthy wouldn't advocate for things like the Estate Tax Repeal, which allows them to pass along the accrued value of their inherited wealth to their children, so that their children will never learn the important life-lessons of hard work, job satisfaction, and boot-strap-pulling-themselves-up-by. In short, wealthy people want the luxury of working less, and so they advocate for that. Ever heard of a Golden Parachute? It's pretty much the definition of a wealth transfer - workers produce value, the CEO takes his harvest of their work when he leaves, regardless of how well he did his job.

Terx, an easy counter to you would be those born with severe cases of down-syndrome.
Nitpicking: that's not at all fair. I term I've learned due to my daughter's situation is "neurotypical". Someone with Down's Syndrome is not neurotypical. So that's a bad example.

But, this raises the valid question of "what's neurotypical"? If my brains secrete a slightly higher concentration of a neurotransmitter would I be considered atypical? What if that secretion rate was .001% of the neurotypical rate? Where do we draw the line? These are valid questions and comparisons, but I don't think DS is.
 
that's not at all fair. I term I've learned due to my daughter's situation is "neurotypical". Someone with Down's Syndrome is not neurotypical. So that's a bad example.

I used down syndrome because I've worked with people with down syndrome. There are many things that their minds can't link, no matter how hard they try and many of them just could not function as regular people without assistance.
 
Just because you've worked with people with a certain condition doesn't make it a good example - that's what I was commenting on.
 
What is that supposed to mean? Examples?


I don't really understand how you could not have a million examples at your beck and call at all times, but sure.

  • Opposing progressive taxes
  • Opposing inheritance taxes
  • Opposing generous welfare state
  • Opposing heavy public funding for schools
  • Opposing heavy public funding for college and trade schools
  • Opposing Affirmative Action
  • Opposing desegregation
  • Opposing affordable housing
  • Opposing public transportation
  • Opposing universal healthcare

All of these things, and millions of other things, have as their primary purpose making it far more difficult for people to improve their life position based on merit.
 
2) Technology is quickly making jobs low-skilled jobs obsolete (while most of the new jobs it creates require certain skills). At the same time, we are getting richer overall, so "reasonable" standard of life continues to rise. Won't that eventually result in a lot of people having skills low enough that no work is available to them? More precisely, that they are competitive with robots only if they are paid so little that they can't allow a "reasonable" standard of living?
3) In that case, shouldn't we institute minimum wages (and possibly create "artificial jobs", i.e. jobs that are not actually necessary) to allow them a certain standard of living? Because free market would simply have them starve, I suppose.

The problem with a minimum and automation-induced unemployment (AIU) is one of competitiveness. A minimum wage will cause skilled people to outcompete unskilled people, but it won't reduce unemployment overall except for a tiny few number of jobs. The jobs can always be filled with the least-skilled qualified individuals. OTOH, minimum wage will cause a loss of competitiveness with automation, and thus WILL cause job loss.

The 'fix' for AIU is not, I think, minimum wage. Minimum wage fixes the problem of high school graduates competing with university graduates for barrista jobs. I think the fix of AIU (and I'm not very confident regarding this) is the implementation of a negative income tax combined with a progressive income tax. This way, entrepreneurs will still profit from investing in robots, but university graduates can continue to feed their families.
 
I don't really understand how you could not have a million examples at your beck and call at all times, but sure.

  • Opposing progressive taxes
  • Opposing inheritance taxes
  • Opposing generous welfare state
  • Opposing heavy public funding for schools
  • Opposing heavy public funding for college and trade schools
  • Opposing Affirmative Action
  • Opposing desegregation
  • Opposing affordable housing
  • Opposing public transportation
  • Opposing universal healthcare

All of these things, and millions of other things, have as their primary purpose making it far more difficult for people to improve their life position based on merit.

I support all these things except, perhaps, affirmative action.
 
Good question. Some random thoughts.
1) Today's minimum wage probably does offer a fairly reasonable standard of living by yesterday's standards.
False. It provides a worse standard of living than yesterdays standard because the minimum wage only increases very infrequently and by small increments whilst the cost of living marches steadily upward with hardly a pause.

caveat: I guess this only holds true in the United States - I'm sure other nations aren't quite so backward in this regard. Hell, just getting the increase to $7.25/hr (from lol $5.15) a few years back was a BIG deal even though when it was implemented it wasn't anything close to a living wage. And guess what? Thanks to our 'pro-family' Republican friends, the minimum wage will stay at $7.25 for another decade or so.

Ha, try raising a family on that wage while they are also trying to cut food stamps, Head Start and anything else that is remotely 'pro-life' (as in necessities for life) for people that are already born. Cuz we all know they luvs the fetuses but once you breach that hot vag you are SOL MOFOS. Best get to boostrappin little born babies!
 
Do most Walmarts also sell food stock these days? Is there a very high margin on such products? Could there not be a way to also compensate with groceries so as not to hurt the bottom line? There does not seem to be a lack of such goods, and there is probably a lot of waste also.

The same could be applied to any wage earner in the food industry.
 
Good question. Some random thoughts.

2) Technology is quickly making jobs low-skilled jobs obsolete (while most of the new jobs it creates require certain skills). At the same time, we are getting richer overall, so "reasonable" standard of life continues to rise. Won't that eventually result in a lot of people having skills low enough that no work is available to them? More precisely, that they are competitive with robots only if they are paid so little that they can't allow a "reasonable" standard of living?
3) In that case, shouldn't we institute minimum wages (and possibly create "artificial jobs", i.e. jobs that are not actually necessary) to allow them a certain standard of living? Because free market would simply have them starve, I suppose.
4) But on what principles should that standard be set? It should be high enough to eliminate worst social problems, yet low enough that people doing "actual" jobs wouldn't lose motivation...
5) And I am afraid that no matter how high one's incomes, somebody who does not manage to feel useful and productive, will always be unhappy with life.

These four thoughts are interesting. Conceivably in a futuristic world one could see the costs of production and service industries shifted to robots. If there gets to be a point where there are just not enough jobs anymore and the actual movement of money starts to crawl to a halt [because more individuals with cash and higher propensities to consume allow money to flow through an economy] the system would eventually collapse on itself, wouldn't it? If the rich could only sell to the rich the poor masses would still exist and eventually a point would be reached when even the rich can't sell solely to each other anymore.

This sort of thinking almost reaches utopia levels. People wouldn't really be incentivized to create and currency as a modicum of exchange would collapse on itself as things stop being produced to be readily sold. People or the masses in this scenario would serve smaller and smaller marginal usefulness to the point where the masses rise up or the rich simply can't carve out a niche anymore themselves in this new world. Capital flow in Ricardian economics would once again regain its tensions and states would aim for overall production. To satisfy those who don't feel productive one would have to change society to value things like leisure, games, whatever to distract from the shrinking numbers of actual employment. Eventually technology would only serve the hedonistic ideas of man - wouldn't it in this theoretical scenario?
 
In my work experience I have replaced high skill positions with technology. If robots allow low skilled workers to be replaced cost effectively we are in for a big social upheaval.

Here is my real life example:
Road construction, specifically finish subgrade and crushed aggregate base prior to paving. What this requires is the entire roadway to be within a tight tolerance +/- 1/2 inch in elevation from design levels. The equipment used for this is a motor grader, a complex machine with 14 levers controlling the various angles of the cutting edge.

In the old days you needed a highly skilled equipment operator that might need ten plus years of experience to be good at it and also required a high natural born talent for operating the equipment. These employees are rare, highly sought after and highly paid. The profitability of the project was tied to how well and how quickly the finishing could be accomplished.

With advances in technology we were able to purchase robotic total stations for around $40K. These survey machines would send signals to the sensors attached to the motor grader and tell the motor grader what to do. The controls were all controlled by the machine. Now instead of needing the highly trained operator you only needed a trained operator, you could take a guy off the street who could drive a car and train him up in a few weeks. In addition it allowed you to get rid of the highly paid survey team. All of this made the work lower cost.

I think robotic workers will drastically change our society and will have some consequences as others have noted. Look at how drones have changed how we wage wars and how casual we become to the destruction that they create? Even President Obama made a casual comment about how good he was at killing when using drones. America likes war but dislikes American casualties, robots will give us the ability to wage war without experiencing casualties with a nice side benefit of helping the high tech economy. I am waiting for when the four legged cheetah robot gets commissioned into combat as a hunter killer unit. Giant Death Robots might not be that far off.
 
What's new about all this?

Technology making highly skilled workers superfluous? It's been happening since at least the beginning of the industrial revolution (whenever that was).

And maybe since people began to use sticks and flint knives. Depending how you look at it.

Writing things down meant that people didn't have to rely on their memories so much, didn't it?

Times change. People change with the times.
 
What's surprising is how much we're still working despite it. Keynes was predicting we'd have a 16-hour week by now, and look how that turned out.
 
I think maybe a lot of it is that, as living standards rise, expectations rise even faster.

Though, at the moment, given a financial bubble to pay for, living standards are falling.

It's just a blip. We'll all soon have jet-packs and holiday homes on the Moon.
 
These four thoughts are interesting. Conceivably in a futuristic world one could see the costs of production and service industries shifted to robots. If there gets to be a point where there are just not enough jobs anymore and the actual movement of money starts to crawl to a halt [because more individuals with cash and higher propensities to consume allow money to flow through an economy] the system would eventually collapse on itself, wouldn't it? If the rich could only sell to the rich the poor masses would still exist and eventually a point would be reached when even the rich can't sell solely to each other anymore.

This sort of thinking almost reaches utopia levels. People wouldn't really be incentivized to create and currency as a modicum of exchange would collapse on itself as things stop being produced to be readily sold. People or the masses in this scenario would serve smaller and smaller marginal usefulness to the point where the masses rise up or the rich simply can't carve out a niche anymore themselves in this new world. Capital flow in Ricardian economics would once again regain its tensions and states would aim for overall production. To satisfy those who don't feel productive one would have to change society to value things like leisure, games, whatever to distract from the shrinking numbers of actual employment. Eventually technology would only serve the hedonistic ideas of man - wouldn't it in this theoretical scenario?

It's not really utopian. Firstly, the rich can just trade with each other. You don't need an infinite number of actors to have an economy, and if people drop out of an economy, the economy could continue.
The main risk is the price of fundamental assets. As the economy grows, the utility of various inputs (wood, air, fuel, water) will rise and rise. This will cause the price of those goods to rise as wealthier and wealthier players bid on the price. This will cause a general (effective) poverty in those that cannot compete.

The second issue is that these people will be buying their essential services from non-poor organisations, and thus their consumption will not create jobs amongst the poor. There can never be 'second' economy composed of poor players if the rich always out-compete the poor in service-delivery. Quinoa was the latest example, but think of it as an analogy, mostly.

What's new about all this?

Technology making highly skilled workers superfluous? It's been happening since at least the beginning of the industrial revolution (whenever that was).

Oh, for sure. No disagreement. The potential problem is the rate at which jobs can be replaced vs. the relative costs of re-training. Retraining someone into a new career takes time and money. In the olden days, the amount of retraining was negligible and so there were alternatives as the layoffs occurred. But, we're looking at a pretty impressive tech-curve in the future. There's a real risk that the cost of making a robot for your next job is cheaper than training you to do it after you got laid off from your first job. This fundamentally means that the robot will cost less than the re-trained employee.

Not saying that this is a priori a bad thing, but it will require a work around.
 
All of these things, and millions of other things, have as their primary purpose making it far more difficult for people to improve their life position based on merit.
Fair enough. You must excuse me, I sometimes forget that our far right would probably be considered far left in the US...
False. It provides a worse standard of living than yesterdays standard because the minimum wage only increases very infrequently and by small increments whilst the cost of living marches steadily upward with hardly a pause.
Well, I was thinking a bit more behind. Say, a 70-80 years. But that probably wasn't apparent from my post. In any case, fair point.
Ha, try raising a family on that wage while they are also trying to cut food stamps, Head Start and anything else that is remotely 'pro-life' (as in necessities for life) for people that are already born. Cuz we all know they luvs the fetuses but once you breach that hot vag you are SOL MOFOS. Best get to boostrappin little born babies!
Normally, I would say that one should not raise a family on minimum wage. But again, we have far less Christian fundamentalists here.
EDIT: Also, even on ppp terms, your minimum wage is higher than our median wage, so you'll again have to excuse me if my heart does not bleed too much here. Also, there are no food stamps.
 
Top Bottom